Christina Kramlich | Cantata Wealth

Josh Hile: Hello, everyone. Josh Hile, CEO and CIO of Citizen Mint. I’m so excited to have another episode of AdvisorView with Christina Kramlich of Cantata Wealth. And maybe, Christina, maybe you can just talk about your background and your path into wealth management.

Christina Kramlich: Sure. And just by the way, it’s Cantata, like a piece of music.

Josh Hile: So Cantata. Sorry, I said it wrong. Okay. Cantata. Cantata Wealth. Okay.

Christina Kramlich: And sure, I’ll share a little bit about my background. You know, it’s funny, I grew up in a finance-oriented household because my father was a venture capitalist. So, I grew up around startups and investing, but not planning. He was all about risk and not really so much about planning.

Josh Hile: Hmm.

Christina Kramlich: And I, I was pretty close to him. We used to have breakfast together every day, and he’d be reading, you know, 16 newspapers, and I’d be reading Dear Abby. So I was definitely, you know, the one that was more interested in personal topics and, and people. And so when I went to school, I was very interested in history and languages and writing. And so I worked in I ended up studying abroad several times, and I really thought maybe I should be a lawyer or be in the Foreign Service or be a journalist. And so I came back to San Francisco after undergrad, ultimately, after I worked in France for a year, came back, and I was trying to pay rent in San Francisco and was having a hard time. I had an internship at CNN, and then the other 4 days of the week I was working. I got a job at a venture capital research firm. Basically, yeah. And then from there, um, I was recruited to join Montgomery Securities. It’s a long way around to answer your question.

Josh Hile: Okay.

Christina Kramlich: But I was recruited to join Montgomery Securities, which was one of the— what they called them, the Four Horsemen of, of really those— that ’90s era investment bank. We were bringing a lot of the startup companies public, and I got to work managing our relationships with venture capitalists. So, I knew which VCs were on which boards, who were interested in which sectors, and how maybe we could, you know, hopefully help to bring those companies public. So, it was really, really fun. However, I didn’t really see myself as becoming an investment banker. I just wasn’t that interested in that.

Josh Hile: Yeah.

Christina Kramlich: So, I ultimately wanted to be on the operating side of companies. So, but I knew I needed, with my background, I needed to go to business school, right? So I applied and got into Kellogg and had just a blast for 2 years. I ended up being very involved in the school shows. It’s called Special K, and we write and produce, you know, short pieces, musical theater pieces. And so—

Josh Hile: That’s great.

Christina Kramlich: So I discovered that I really enjoyed performing and I enjoyed the musicality of musical theater. So anyway, fast forward, I joined upon graduation, joined one of the first fintech companies because I knew that, you know, it was 1998 when I graduated from Kellogg’s. So you could get a job just about anything that said internet in it.

Josh Hile: Yeah, yeah.

Christina Kramlich: But not all of them made money. And I was like, I wanna be at a company that makes money. So, I joined this internet credit card company, which yes, did make money, but I ended up learning way too much about credit cards. So, you know, we did go public. The company didn’t do very well ultimately, but I learned a lot and then transitioned to a— I ultimately left to joined a music software company with one of my very best friends from Kellogg, who had also been involved with Special K. Anyway, that company also failed during the internet bust. So, I actually had, you know, kind of started the process of moving out of San Francisco at that point. And I ultimately met my husband and took some years off, started a family. and did some musical theater on the side. Then in about 2011, another friend from the fintech world called me and said, you really need to get involved with SoFi at the very beginning.

Josh Hile: Really?

Christina Kramlich: Because you know enough about finance, you have a strong network, and what we’re building here is really interesting. And so, I did. I came on board with SoFi and helped them raised money for their first loan funds, raised some money for the firm, did a lot of different roles, and ultimately helped launch SoFi Wealth, which still exists. And it was at SoFi Wealth where I really became interested in becoming a CFP, and I could sort of see the next phase of my career being a CFP. in the independent space. So, it was time for me to— once I got my CFP, it was time for me to branch off from SoFi and find an independent firm. So, that’s a long way of answering how I was drawn into wealth management.

Josh Hile: And maybe now, so we’re at the wealth management stage. Okay. So, you went through a ton, learned a ton. And then maybe now, so how did you join a wealth manager and then decide to start your own wealth manager?

Christina Kramlich: Yes, so, um, I found a wonderful firm that was all ESG-based, um, and planning forward. So I really wanted to learn the craft of financial planning. I could see that You know, in investments, like, you know, you can outsource them, you can use, you know, someone like DFA.

Josh Hile: Mm-hmm.

Christina Kramlich: If you want to find a very specific channel, you can, you know, focus on something like ESG. There are a lot of really good reasons to, especially, you know, perhaps in 2019, great reasons to focus on ESG. Anyway, I did that and, and, and really, you know, kind of learned how to, how to bring clients along, learn the core tenets of listening well, building plans, creating relationships with, with clients. And, and then I realized around 2023, 2024 that I wanted more on the investment menu than ESG. I wanted to continue to focus on ESG and I wanted my clients who were working with me to be able to still have their portfolios. But I also, if someone wasn’t initially driven by ESG concerns, I wanted to be able to offer them something that was, you know, just sort of more globally oriented.

Josh Hile: Yeah.

Christina Kramlich: And so, it became clear that I needed to move on. And so, I was, looking and interviewing with several different firms. And one of the people that I stayed in touch with was our current co-CEO, Greg Chang, who I had met at SoFi when we were choosing a custodian for SoFi Wealth. He was doing business development for Pershing at the time, and he was a great listener. And so, and then it turned out that he was also really good friends with my friend who I had been at Kellogg with, who I had joined the music software company with. They also played music together. And so, so, so I had kept in touch with Greg. By this time, it had been a decade. And so, as I was interviewing around, I called him and he said, well, it’s really funny that you would call me today because I’m actually wrapping up this experience that I’ve had with being a sort of interim CEO, president of a wealth management firm here in Florida. And I’m looking around for what’s next. And I said, oh, well, isn’t Isn’t that interesting? So, we started talking and then he brought to the table Kevin Berry, who’s our CIO. And Kevin brings a ton of experience to the table, having been CIO several times and been through being, gosh, earlier in his career, he was the head of US fixed income at a bulge bracket firm. And then he was a hedge fund trader, then a hedge fund manager, then a manager of managers. Then he was at a very large RIA doing a lot of acquisitions. So, he’s really been sort of through it all in this business. So, I thought, hmm, this is an interesting— we’re all bringing different types of experience to the table. I’m going to just refer to my notes here.

Josh Hile: Yeah.

Christina Kramlich: And we started really thinking about, okay, well, how would we build the ideal firm? You know, what would we really want to have as our themes? And first of all, we have a no knucklehead rule, which I think is incredibly important in this business. So, just a culture of respect and treating people kindly.

Josh Hile: Yeah.

Christina Kramlich: But that’s all wrapped up in, and kind of the tenets that we use, which are listen acutely, risk sensibly, and proceed generously. So we kind of started talking about those themes from the very beginning of the firm. And those themes also encompass kind of the financial life planning framework that I had learned at my previous firm. that I think can be really important in whether you use, you know, one particular method or not, learning to slow down and, and really ask questions and listen to your client, listen to what is keeping them up at night, listening, listen to what their concerns are, what they’re, what they’re worried about today and what they’re worried about 10 years from now and how to help them build their financial life so that they can accomplish their goals and they’re not anchored on some previous framework that’s no longer working.

Josh Hile: Yeah. And maybe that’s part of this whole story about your firm differentiation and kind of how you bring it together. But, you know, obviously wealth management, there’s a lot of different firms. They all try to like have some level of differentiation. And maybe it, from what you said, would that be it? Or what else, uh, kind of differentiates how you’re trying to like build your firm and like the clients you’re going after? And is there maybe also you can discuss like the demographics of the clients that you’re expecting to have and have currently?

Christina Kramlich: Mm-hmm. Sure. I think one of the ways that we really differentiate ourselves is in our approach to not only life planning and being planning-centric, but then when we do decide on how a particular allocation might work, the kind of tenets that we use, the discipline around building the investment portfolio. So because of Kevin’s experience in the hedge fund world, he has a very specific methodology that he uses around macroeconomics. And then when he decides that something looks promising, he will choose an approach and make a, you know, kind of gradual entry into that approach and also be always looking for the exit strategy. Like, He has the exit strategy in mind at the very beginning. And I think that’s something that really differentiates us because oftentimes, you know, you can have a great idea about what some sector is going to do and then you choose your winners within that sector. But then when do you choose to exit? Like, what is it? Have you already thought about what needs to happen in order for for this to go correctly? And what needs to happen if this is going to go badly? And when are you going to make that call? So, so that is something that we have built into our framework and, and is definitely a part of how we look at the world.

Josh Hile: And so, and what, I guess, how does that look from a portfolio construction standpoint? Is it Like, there’s just a certain portion of the portfolio that’s moving based on macro environment, or how is that like kind of differentiation, like different from the prior firm you worked with?

Christina Kramlich: It’s not. We tend to use more ETFs than the prior firm that I was with. We’re not against having single stock positions, but in general, we’re more diversified. As far as the risk framework.

Josh Hile: Yeah.

Christina Kramlich: And then we’re constantly looking for, you know, ways to enter into new markets through ETFs and single stock positions. And also being sure that we’re not making too much of a leap in. Um, and that will make us unable to get out if, if it doesn’t work. So we’ll enter, you know, small positions, small positions over time rather than go all in all at once. Yeah.

Josh Hile: Yeah.

Christina Kramlich: Okay.

Josh Hile: And then what about just the type of clients you’re usually working with? What do those usually look like and who are you actually like looking to work with in general?

Christina Kramlich: We work with quite a few very successful executive women. Quite a few exited founders, venture capitalists, other successful female investors who might really be looking for a woman to work with who’s also been you know, an employee of startups and high-growth companies. So, my experience, my personal experience does bring something to the table in that regard. So, many, many women, and then also quite a few business owners, quite a few people nearing retirement or in retirement who are looking, you know, I would say that there are a few people people that we have who are facing the reality that they really need to have an investment advisor who can work with their wife. Like, you know, maybe they’re in their 70s and they want to be sure that if something happens to them, that their wife understands what’s going on. So, The life planning framework that I use does do a good job of helping kind of bring people onto the same page in their financial lives. A lot of people have not had those discussions. In fact, I work with people all the time who say, well, we’ve been married for 25 years and I’ve never had this conversation with you about your memories around money or how you’re—

Josh Hile: Different aspects.

Christina Kramlich: of cognition around our attitudes around money. So that is very useful. And let’s see. So, yep, business owners, retirees, soon-to-be retirees, inheritors, you know, who— and creatives also, if, you know, because of our musical background, all of us.

Josh Hile: Yeah.

Christina Kramlich: We tend to know people who are in the creative world. Maybe they’re musicians or artists some other way, and they’ve had some success, and they like our approach.

Josh Hile: So what about— and where are you actually sourcing those clients from? Is there one specific geographic region, or is it referrals, or how does that actually How are those actually coming to you?

Christina Kramlich: Generally, we have, we’ve really, at least so far, it’s just all been word of mouth, personal connections, referrals. Some, you know, we are fee-only, which was very important to me. And so we’re on the NAPFA network, and sometimes I get random inquiries from NAPFA, and that’s been actually helpful. So yeah, yeah. So, and generally our client size is anywhere from like $2 million to about $20 million. So I would say it’s average about $5 million.

Josh Hile: And how do you see kind of the firm evolving or like, you know, growing over time? Is it, you know, you’re going to work with a select number of families within your kind of 3 group of individuals, or is it you’re trying to grow this to be a bigger firm?

Christina Kramlich: We are definitely trying to grow this to be a bigger firm. I think over time, we envision using kind of the diamond team model.

Josh Hile: Mm-hmm.

Christina Kramlich: So we will probably add more advisors as we go. And they will continue to have support from operations and our back office partner and certainly from our CIO. And geographically, we’re already you know, spanning the nation. So I’m in California, but our CEO is in Miami and our CIO is in North Carolina. So we’re, and we, and I, we have clients all over the country. So, so that, so we were already kind of, you know, we already have a pretty broad reach, I would say.

Josh Hile: And just as a curiosity, how do you actually like Work with your clients over time? Is it working across, like, generational wealth? Is it working like, like a few meetings a year? Like, everybody kind of does it differently. Some are like, we’re gonna do one meeting a year, quarterly meetings. People like to do Zoom now more than most meeting in person. How does that actually work?

Christina Kramlich: The initial onboarding process, when I’m especially, you know, with the financial life planning framework that we use, tends to be fairly front-loaded. So we’ll meet several times over the first few months while we’re building the plan and while we’re getting to know each other. And then from there, it sort of transitions into kind of a maintenance mode, but I’m still very available for my clients. And so in general, it’s every 6 months to a year, usually every 6 months, really. Or more often, if someone is going through something. Like if I have a client who’s buying a house or going through a major transition, switching jobs, wanting some input, wanting help with decision-making, selling a home, going through a large taxable transition. So, you know, we— try to be available, you know, or I try to be available, you know, whenever my clients really, really need it. So, so yeah, so it’s generally, you know, we’ll have a full sit-down meeting, I would say, at least every 6 to 9 months, but, you know, available as needed more frequently.

Josh Hile: Got it. And maybe you can just talk about The taxes and kind of estate planning, and how does that actually come into how you plan for these clients? Because I know obviously taxes are such a huge issue, especially as you move up that, like, wealth spectrum. And I know clients hate paying taxes in most cases.

Christina Kramlich: So, of course they do. Yes. So, um, we work very closely, as closely as possible, really, um, with the client’s CPA. And if the client doesn’t have a CPA, we have a pretty big network. that we can help them find one, hopefully. It was something I definitely learned at my prior firm and just the value of having that integration, I would say, in the planning. And same with estate planning on the legal side. That is more episodic, whereas I would say that the relationship with the CPAs more continuous. And so, however, having the— I would say having the CFP there to keep ringing the bell, keep making sure that we’re meeting deadlines is useful because a lot of times, you know, those other professionals have lots of other obligations and it’s helpful to be able to have, you know, a cheerleader saying, hey, are you going to get back to me about you know, some other estimate, certainly with the capital gains budgets every year.

Josh Hile: Yeah.

Christina Kramlich: I try to really work with this, with the CPA to say, you know, this is what the tax strategy is going to look like this coming year. And a lot of times, especially when people are transitioning to decumulation, it can be a real adjustment after they’ve gone for years and years and years hardly paying any taxes to all of a sudden they’re gonna have to start paying more in taxes, and, and they’re not excited about it, understandably, right?

Josh Hile: Yeah.

Christina Kramlich: But sometimes it’s just, well, let’s, let’s figure out how we can minimize it, of course. But, but also, um, you know, you have the good fortune of having a large RMD coming. If you don’t need all of that, then perhaps we can use some QCDs. Um, there are other solutions we can do. We’ve We’ve successfully implemented CRT that was, you know, has so far been a wonderful solution because it’s provided, you know, a little bit of income and has satisfied the client’s desire to, you know, provide a lasting legacy that’s charitable.

Josh Hile: Yeah.

Christina Kramlich: And of course, utilizing DAFs have been great, you know, as a tax planning tool as well as a charitable giving facilitator.

Josh Hile: Yeah. What about just in— maybe this is going back to the portfolio and kind of your investment management of the portfolio, but like, how have you used kind of private markets? What do you think about private markets? How will that be utilized in the future for your clients? going forward?

Christina Kramlich: Sure. I mean, having come from the venture capital world and having worked at several startups, I know just how volatile it can be. And also the fact that oftentimes it means your liquidity is really limited for, you know, sometimes it can be a significant period of time. But also the rewards can be outsized. So I think it has to be suitable, and the client not only has to have the capacity, but also has to have the tolerance and cannot be in a hurry to get their money out of a private investment. So it has to be right, and it has to— But sometimes it can be incredibly useful in the right contexts. It can be a very interesting way to work with a client to scratch a certain itch, like a desire to discover something maybe before the rest of the world’s discovered it, to dive deep into a certain industry that they think is really interesting. It can offer up opportunities for education that they wouldn’t have otherwise had. And so, I do think I tend to advocate funds over startups as—

Josh Hile: Yeah.

Christina Kramlich: Because just the concentration risk is a lot to take. But in some cases, with the right clients and the right opportunities, as long as the fees aren’t too high, I think it can be a really great part of a portfolio.

Josh Hile: And what do you envision as a— and I guess this goes into your CIO, but like, what do you envision that being like from a total percentage of the portfolio? Is it 5%? Is it 10%? Is it 15%? Is it more? How does that actually look? And obviously, it probably depends on the client’s wealth.

Christina Kramlich: It does absolutely depend on the client’s wealth as well as their risk tolerance. And if they may have already— like, I have some clients who are very practiced interested in this and they already have their own private portfolios. So therefore, what we’re doing for them is we’re not going to probably add a lot of privates to their portfolio because they already have it. For other clients who might say, I would like to wade into this, then I think we look closely at what the opportunities are that fit with the sizing and the fees and the industry sectors. And, and then, and then go from there. And maybe it’s, maybe it starts at 2% and tops out at 5%. Maybe it’s more, it just, it is, it’s highly dependent on the individual situation.

Josh Hile: Yeah, no, definitely. Is there any, I guess, common mistakes you see? And this is Kind of going back to our questions, but like any common mistakes you see families making with significant wealth that they like, you would, you want to help them with, or you actively help some of your clients with?

Christina Kramlich: Well, it’s, if you’ve, you’ve probably worked with family offices, right? And, and you know the saying, if you know one family office, you know one family office.

Josh Hile: Yeah, exactly.

Christina Kramlich: So, but I would, so it’s, so it’s hard to generalize. So I guess that’s what I’m saying by that. But what I’ve seen is there’s a, there’s a few, uh, there’s a few common themes that I’ve witnessed. One is, um, uh, there’s a, you, it is an oddity and a, and a rare oddity.

Josh Hile: Yeah.

Christina Kramlich: to have to see someone who is extremely successful, who has done the planning, and who has also trained the next generation to be good stewards of wealth. So, that is, if that comes across my desk, I’m impressed. I’m very impressed.

Josh Hile: Yeah.

Christina Kramlich: Because it just doesn’t happen very often. You can try, but there are so many ways for legacy planning to not hit the mark. So one of the ways is giving too much too soon, and then there’s a failure to launch, right? So then, so it can prevent the next generation from discovering who they really are if they’re given too much too soon.

Josh Hile: Mm-hmm.

Christina Kramlich: are also perhaps, perhaps there are ways that the Gen 1 can, can reckon with the realities that might be at play. Like if there’s several siblings and one is going to have trouble managing wealth, but the others are going to be, you know, might be okay. They’re pretty—

Josh Hile: Yeah.

Christina Kramlich: able to handle it. There might be a structure that the Gen 1 can use in planning, but they have to be able to articulate it and face it, right? And so facing those things, that’s where the life planning process can be very helpful in helping people articulate and become kind of comfortable with uncomfortable topics. So I think that’s important.

Josh Hile: Yeah.

Christina Kramlich: And if the advisor can be their partner and help them work through those difficulties, then you can get to the point where you can say to the estate planner, this is what we’re dealing with and what are some options we can, we can discuss? Because I think a lot of times what happens is that might be a problem. And so then they put off planning for everyone because of that one problem. And then there’s— then no planning happens, right?

Josh Hile: Yeah. Yeah.

Christina Kramlich: So, so that’s, that’s so helping people, I guess, face reality a little bit. And it can be painful.

Josh Hile: Yeah.

Christina Kramlich: And then, and then on a— then the other, you know, a little bit less loaded would be simply utilizing frameworks like around charitable giving. to provide an opportunity as a vehicle for families to develop traditions and frameworks to look at family governance and investments as kind of a habit and have it be charitable. So I did some work when I was becoming a a certified advisor in philanthropy. And they had some interesting books that went into this topic and the idea of kind of utilizing a charitable gift fund as kind of a testing ground for families to look at different ways of distributing wealth, governing it, making investments and have it be sort of something that became a tradition and that kind of went from family member to family member over the course of maybe 1 or 2 years, you’d switch. So, each family member got to have their kind of moment of being the one, you know, kind of making decisions or being the lead, you know, consensus builder.

Josh Hile: Yeah.

Christina Kramlich: Who had provided the training. Because that’s, that’s, that’s oftentimes the big challenge. And then, you know, just even more broadly, a lot— I think a lot of Gen 1 doesn’t really recognize how expensive it is now to send kids to college. To just to get back to what we were talking about earlier, it’s that the costs have gone up so much that If I can encourage them, if they have a new grandchild, to put in something for a 529. I mean, you know, our world is changing so quickly that education is probably going to change fundamentally, but so it doesn’t have to be overfunded, but just start putting in something when the child is very young can really make a big difference for the parents.

Josh Hile: Yeah, 100%. Oh, those are all very practical topics and needed. So, and I guess with that, since this is a pretty big topic, but like, where do you see wealth management head over the next 3 to 5 years? And how do you see AI playing a role in that?

Christina Kramlich: Yeah, I think, I think there are really interesting opportunities with AI right now. And, and I think there are going to be a lot of a lot of investors who say, well, I don’t need an advisor. And, you know, because AI is going to tell me everything I need to know. And that might be the case. And there’s so much need for wealth management now that there’s going to be a lot of people who go down that path and maybe their needs are satisfied. But for the more complex planning opportunities, I think that’s where advisors who are working with those clients really have an opportunity to use the tools and get better at being— diving in with good questions and listening skills and the ability to communicate. So, but in order to get there, we have to really be active with those tools. We can’t just be passive because the tools aren’t always right. Like, you know, we’re lucky to have them. They’re super convenient. They allow us to do our jobs faster, but they don’t necessarily—

Josh Hile: Right.

Christina Kramlich: necessarily, like, you know, I always have to double-check and edit and, and make sure the thing wasn’t hallucinating.

Josh Hile: Yeah.

Christina Kramlich: And didn’t miss key parts of the conversation. A lot of times, you know, note-takers will, will just completely sidestep a topic that actually was shown, showed a lot of light and, and maybe was, you know, subtle, but but of much import.

Josh Hile: So, yeah.

Christina Kramlich: So, I think that there’s a tremendous amount of opportunity and that it’s really great. But I think that it just means that advisors have to stay on top of it and have to author the experience. That’s where it kind of comes down is you have to remember that you are in charge of the tool. The tool is not in charge of you.

Josh Hile: Yeah, yeah. No, that’s great. Yeah, I think, I mean, obviously it’s going to be a changing universe and dynamics over the next few years, so it’s going to be incredibly interesting to watch. And obviously there’s a lot of these new AI wealth managers coming out, but at the same time, there is this goal of like creating, utilizing AI to do so much more for a client and like essentially across their family planning and like very being more personalized to that specific client needs.

Christina Kramlich: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Josh Hile: I guess as we close, here’s one thing I always ask is, you know, what’s something that people don’t know about you? Like, obviously you mentioned your music side of the background, but like, maybe what, what else is something you didn’t— they don’t know that you do or of who you are?

Christina Kramlich: Hmm. Well, let’s see. I really like long-distance sports. So, okay, long-distance biking, long-distance horseback riding is actually something I’ve done for— both of those are things I’ve done for—

Josh Hile: What is long-distance horseback riding? Tell me more. What does that actually look like?

Christina Kramlich: How long do we have? Um, um, like 50 to 100 miles in a day.

Josh Hile: Oh my goodness, it sounds painful. Where are you doing that at?

Christina Kramlich: Oh, well, in on the West Coast, and I would say in the mountain states, we’re so lucky to have access to trails. Um, so it can really be anywhere. It depends on where a ride is going on. But, um, yeah, we can go in the Sierras, in the desert, in the mountains up in Humboldt County and, uh, um, Oregon. Colorado, Grand Canyon. I mean, lots of places. So you have to train, you have to have a horse obviously who, you know, is built for it and likes it and can handle the, the long trailer rides. But, um, but it’s, it’s, it’s a blast. It’s very fun. Oh, okay

Josh Hile: Well, that’s the most unique one I’ve heard so far. So I, that is definitely a gold star and a half.

Christina Kramlich: So, well, I appreciate you coming on.

Josh Hile: And walking us through all this super helpful information and just love to see what you’re building. Thank you.

Christina Kramlich: Thank you so much for having me on, Josh. I hope it was helpful.