[{"data":1,"prerenderedAt":2170},["ShallowReactive",2],{"resource-interconnection-capital-infrastructure-energy-transition":3,"resource-next-interconnection-capital-infrastructure-energy-transition":1410},{"id":4,"title":5,"author":6,"body":7,"category":1398,"date":1399,"description":1400,"extension":1401,"image":1402,"imageAlt":1403,"meta":1404,"navigation":1405,"path":1406,"seo":1407,"stem":1408,"__hash__":1409},"resources\u002Fresources\u002Finterconnection-capital-infrastructure-energy-transition.md","The Infrastructure Behind the Energy Transition: Unlocking the Grid with Interconnection Capital","Josh Giordano",{"type":8,"value":9,"toc":1394},"minimark",[10,14,18,27,34,40,46,52,58,64,70,76,82,88,94,100,106,112,118,124,130,136,142,148,154,160,166,172,178,184,190,196,202,208,214,220,226,232,238,244,250,256,262,268,274,280,286,292,298,304,310,316,322,328,334,340,346,352,358,364,370,376,382,388,394,400,406,412,418,424,430,436,442,448,454,460,466,472,478,484,490,496,502,507,513,519,525,531,537,543,549,555,561,566,572,578,584,590,596,602,608,614,620,626,632,638,644,650,656,662,668,674,680,686,692,698,704,710,716,722,728,734,739,744,750,756,762,768,774,780,786,792,798,804,810,816,822,828,834,840,846,852,858,864,870,876,882,888,894,900,906,912,918,924,930,936,942,948,954,960,966,972,978,984,990,996,1002,1008,1014,1020,1026,1032,1038,1044,1050,1056,1062,1068,1074,1080,1086,1092,1098,1104,1110,1116,1122,1127,1133,1139,1145,1151,1157,1163,1169,1175,1181,1187,1193,1199,1205,1211,1217,1223,1229,1235,1241,1247,1253,1259,1265,1271,1277,1283,1289,1295,1301,1307,1313,1319,1325,1331,1337,1343,1349,1355,1361,1367,1373,1379,1385,1388,1391],[11,12,13],"p",{},"Listen to a discussion on the emerging opportunity of interconnection capital: a short-duration strategy designed to address critical grid bottlenecks while offering structural downside protection through regulatory refundability.",[15,16],"buzzsprout-player",{"title":5,"url":17},"https:\u002F\u002Fwww.buzzsprout.com\u002F2378225\u002Fepisodes\u002F18615307",[11,19,20],{},[21,22,26],"a",{"href":23,"rel":24},"https:\u002F\u002Fwww.buzzsprout.com\u002F2378225\u002Fepisodes\u002F18615307-the-infrastructure-behind-the-energy-transition-unlocking-the-grid-with-interconnection-capital",[25],"nofollow","Listen to the episode",[11,28,29,30,33],{},"0:00",[31,32],"br",{},"\nSo let’s just look at the scoreboard for a second.",[11,35,36,37,39],{},"0:01",[31,38],{},"\nIf you read the headlines, you’d think the energy transition is, well, basically won, the Capitol’s there.",[11,41,42,43,45],{},"0:07",[31,44],{},"\ntrillions of dollars in ESG funds, infrastructure, private equity, all just sitting there ready to go.",[11,47,48,49,51],{},"0:14",[31,50],{},"\nThe tech is mature.",[11,53,54,55,57],{},"0:15",[31,56],{},"\nSolar and wind are cheaper than coal in most places.",[11,59,60,61,63],{},"0:18",[31,62],{},"\nThe public will is largely there.",[11,65,66,67,69],{},"0:20",[31,68],{},"\nSo my question is, why does the data show that the actual deployment of new energy onto the grid is slowing down?",[11,71,72,73,75],{},"0:28",[31,74],{},"\nIt’s the difference between having a Ferrari in the garage and having a road to drive it on.",[11,77,78,79,81],{},"0:33",[31,80],{},"\nAnd right now that road is closed, and we’re not talking about supply chain issues or lithium shortages today.",[11,83,84,85,87],{},"0:38",[31,86],{},"\nWe’re looking at this invisible wall that thousands of perfectly Good renewable projects are just crashing into the interconnection queue.",[11,89,90,91,93],{},"0:45",[31,92],{},"\nThe queue, it sounds so administrative, like a line at the DMV, right?",[11,95,96,97,99],{},"0:48",[31,98],{},"\nExactly.",[11,101,102,103,105],{},"0:49",[31,104],{},"\nBut based on the stack of research we’ve got in front of us from Citizen Mint, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, recent FERC filings, this queue is actually where billions of dollars of value are being created or, you know, destroyed.",[11,107,108,109,111],{},"1:02",[31,110],{},"\nIt is the single biggest bottleneck in the US energy market today.",[11,113,114,115,117],{},"1:07",[31,116],{},"\nAnd what’s so fascinating is that while everyone’s focused on the hardware, the panels, the turbines.",[11,119,120,121,123],{},"1:15",[31,122],{},"\nThe smart money is looking at the friction.",[11,125,126,127,129],{},"1:17",[31,128],{},"\nThey’re looking at something called interconnection capital.",[11,131,132,133,135],{},"1:20",[31,134],{},"\nSo that’s our mission for this deep dive.",[11,137,138,139,141],{},"1:21",[31,140],{},"\nWe’re going to strip away the green energy hype and look at the, the brutal mechanics of grid infrastructure and finance.",[11,143,144,145,147],{},"1:29",[31,146],{},"\nWe need to understand why 300 acre solar farm can have the land, the permits, the funding, but still sit totally dead in the water for 4 years because of a PDF file on some utility engineer’s desktop.",[11,149,150,151,153],{},"1:42",[31,152],{},"\nAnd specifically we’re talking about the capital you need just to survive that wait.",[11,155,156,157,159],{},"1:47",[31,158],{},"\nAll right, so let’s start with what you call the great gridlock.",[11,161,162,163,165],{},"1:49",[31,164],{},"\nI think most people, you know, generalists, have this misconception that the electric grid is kind of an open platform like the internet.",[11,167,168,169,171],{},"1:56",[31,170],{},"\nYeah, you build a server, you plug it in, you’re live.",[11,173,174,175,177],{},"1:58",[31,176],{},"\nThat analogy just falls apart immediately because the internet doesn’t have thermal limits.",[11,179,180,181,183],{},"2:03",[31,182],{},"\nThe grid is a physical machine.",[11,185,186,187,189],{},"2:05",[31,188],{},"\nI mean, it’s the largest machine in the world, and it operates in real time.",[11,191,192,193,195],{},"2:09",[31,194],{},"\nSupply has to match demand perfectly every single millisecond.",[11,197,198,199,201],{},"2:14",[31,200],{},"\nSo when you propose adding say 500 megawatts of solar in rural Texas, you’re not just plugging in.",[11,203,204,205,207],{},"2:21",[31,206],{},"\nNo, not at all.",[11,209,210,211,213],{},"2:22",[31,212],{},"\nYou are potentially changing voltage stability, thermal loading, reactive power flows, maybe 3 counties over, which is why we have this whole study phase right before you can connect the grid operator, the RTO or ISO, they have to run a whole series of engineering studies, feasibility studies, system impact studies, facility studies.",[11,215,216,217,219],{},"2:40",[31,218],{},"\nThey have to literally model the grid to see if your project breaks it.",[11,221,222,223,225],{},"2:44",[31,224],{},"\nAnd this is where that Lawrence Berkeley National Lab data comes in.",[11,227,228,229,231],{},"2:47",[31,230],{},"\nThe volume of requests isn’t just up, it’s like vertical.",[11,233,234,235,237],{},"2:50",[31,236],{},"\nOh, it’s staggering.",[11,239,240,241,243],{},"2:51",[31,242],{},"\nBetween 2019 and 2023, interconnection requests spiked by 325%, and the grid operators, I mean, they were not staffed for that, not even close.",[11,245,246,247,249],{},"3:00",[31,248],{},"\nThey were built for a world where you’d add one giant coal plant every 5 years or so, not 4000 small solar projects every single year.",[11,251,252,253,255],{},"3:08",[31,254],{},"\nAnd so the system just choked.",[11,257,258,259,261],{},"3:11",[31,260],{},"\nYeah, the data shows the median time from just the initial request to actually starting commercial operation has pushed out by nearly 30 months.",[11,263,264,265,267],{},"3:19",[31,266],{},"\n30 months.",[11,269,270,271,273],{},"3:20",[31,272],{},"\nThat’s 2.5 years of added delay.",[11,275,276,277,279],{},"3:23",[31,278],{},"\nBut think about what that delay actually does.",[11,281,282,283,285],{},"3:25",[31,284],{},"\nThe second order effects are brutal.",[11,287,288,289,291],{},"3:27",[31,290],{},"\nIf you’re a developer, you’ve got option agreements on that land.",[11,293,294,295,297],{},"3:31",[31,296],{},"\nYou’re paying landowners every year just to hold the site.",[11,299,300,301,303],{},"3:33",[31,302],{},"\nYou’ve got overhead.",[11,305,306,307,309],{},"3:35",[31,308],{},"\nYou have investors who are expecting an IRR, so a 30 month delay doesn’t just push your revenue back, it burns your pre-development capital.",[11,311,312,313,315],{},"3:42",[31,314],{},"\nIt can completely kill the project’s economics before you even stick a shovel in the ground.",[11,317,318,319,321],{},"3:47",[31,320],{},"\nSo the queue isn’t just a waiting room, it’s more like a death valley, exactly.",[11,323,324,325,327],{},"3:50",[31,326],{},"\nAnd to manage this, the grid operators had to install a filter.",[11,329,330,331,333],{},"3:54",[31,332],{},"\nThey couldn’t just let anyone with a map and a dream submit a request because it was just clogging up all the modeling software.",[11,335,336,337,339],{},"4:00",[31,338],{},"\nThey need a way to screen for only the serious projects, which brings us to the financial gatekeeper.",[11,341,342,343,345],{},"4:07",[31,344],{},"\nThe deposit.",[11,347,348,349,351],{},"4:09",[31,350],{},"\nThis feels like the crux of it.",[11,353,354,355,357],{},"4:10",[31,356],{},"\nIt is.",[11,359,360,361,363],{},"4:12",[31,362],{},"\nTo get into the queue and keep your spot, you have to post a really substantial financial deposit.",[11,365,366,367,369],{},"4:18",[31,368],{},"\nAnd this is not some nominal application fee.",[11,371,372,373,375],{},"4:21",[31,374],{},"\nWe are talking millions of dollars per project, and you’re posting this capital while the outcome is still totally uncertain.",[11,377,378,379,381],{},"4:28",[31,380],{},"\nThat’s the kicker.",[11,383,384,385,387],{},"4:30",[31,386],{},"\nYou’re posting this capital just to find out if you can even connect.",[11,389,390,391,393],{},"4:33",[31,392],{},"\nThe deposit is meant to fund the utility’s network upgrades, you know, new substations, bigger power lines, if you end up proceeding.",[11,395,396,397,399],{},"4:40",[31,398],{},"\nBut for the whole time you’re in the study process, which we just said can take years, that cash is just trapped, trapped.",[11,401,402,403,405],{},"4:47",[31,404],{},"\nThis sounds like a massive balance sheet advantage for the big incumbent players.",[11,407,408,409,411],{},"4:51",[31,410],{},"\nIt is the defining asymmetry of this market.",[11,413,414,415,417],{},"4:53",[31,416],{},"\nIf you are a huge utility like Nextterra or Duke Energy, you have a massive balance sheet.",[11,419,420,421,423],{},"4:59",[31,422],{},"\nYou can post a $5 million deposit with a letter of credit or just cash on hand, and for you that’s a rounding error.",[11,425,426,427,429],{},"5:04",[31,428],{},"\nYou can just absorb the opportunity cost of that capital for sure.",[11,431,432,433,435],{},"5:07",[31,434],{},"\nBut if you’re a mid-market independent.",[11,437,438,439,441],{},"5:10",[31,440],{},"\nPower producer and IPP.",[11,443,444,445,447],{},"5:12",[31,446],{},"\nMaybe you’re more innovative.",[11,449,450,451,453],{},"5:13",[31,452],{},"\nMaybe you’ve got a better site picked out, but you don’t have $50 million in cash just sitting around to park in restricted accounts for 10 different projects, precisely.",[11,455,456,457,459],{},"5:21",[31,458],{},"\nAnd so it forces this premature consolidation.",[11,461,462,463,465],{},"5:25",[31,464],{},"\nReally efficient, smart developers are forced to sell their project to the giants at a huge discount simply because they can’t handle the capital requirements of the Q.",[11,467,468,469,471],{},"5:34",[31,470],{},"\nOK, but the regulators, they’re not blind to this.",[11,473,474,475,477],{},"5:37",[31,476],{},"\nThe Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, FERC, they dropped what looks like a bombshell in July 2023.",[11,479,480,481,483],{},"5:45",[31,482],{},"\nOrder number 2023.",[11,485,486,487,489],{},"5:46",[31,488],{},"\nThe interconnection reforms.",[11,491,492,493,495],{},"5:48",[31,494],{},"\nI mean, this is the most significant regulatory shift in the space in probably two decades.",[11,497,498,499,501],{},"5:53",[31,500],{},"\nThe big headline.",[11,503,498,504,506],{},[31,505],{},"\nwas that it creates cluster studies.",[11,508,509,510,512],{},"5:56",[31,511],{},"\nSo instead of studying projects one by one serially, they study them in batches, which just makes sense from an engineering perspective.",[11,514,515,516,518],{},"6:02",[31,517],{},"\nIf you have 10 projects in the same county, you should model their combined impact, right?",[11,520,521,522,524],{},"6:06",[31,523],{},"\nBut the mechanism FERC used is what matters for our deep dive today.",[11,526,527,528,530],{},"6:10",[31,529],{},"\nThey moved from first come, first served to first ready, first served, first ready.",[11,532,533,534,536],{},"6:16",[31,535],{},"\nThat sounds efficient, but usually ready in this industry is just another word for well funded.",[11,538,539,540,542],{},"6:21",[31,541],{},"\nYou absolutely nailed it.",[11,544,545,546,548],{},"6:22",[31,547],{},"\nTo be considered ready, you now have to prove you have exclusive site control.",[11,550,551,552,554],{},"6:27",[31,553],{},"\nYou own the land or have a binding lease before you even enter the queue, and you have to post much higher deposits, significantly higher, and those deposits become at risk much, much faster.",[11,556,557,558,560],{},"6:38",[31,559],{},"\nSo they basically raised the stakes to fold the people who are bluffing.",[11,562,563,564,99],{},"6:42",[31,565],{},[11,567,568,569,571],{},"6:43",[31,570],{},"\nThey wanted to purge all the speculative projects from the queue, and to be fair, it worked, at least partially, but the paradox, and the sources are very clear on this.",[11,573,574,575,577],{},"6:51",[31,576],{},"\nIs that by raising the bar to get in, they drastically increase the short-term capital needs for the legitimate developers.",[11,579,580,581,583],{},"6:58",[31,582],{},"\nSo FERC solved the traffic jam by raising the toll to a price that a lot of the mid-market just can’t afford.",[11,585,586,587,589],{},"7:04",[31,588],{},"\nIt creates a liquidity crisis.",[11,591,592,593,595],{},"7:05",[31,594],{},"\nCorrect.",[11,597,598,599,601],{},"7:06",[31,600],{},"\nThe need for this interconnection capital didn’t go away with Order 2023.",[11,603,604,605,607],{},"7:11",[31,606],{},"\nIt actually intensified.",[11,609,610,611,613],{},"7:13",[31,612],{},"\nThe developer now needs to bridge a larger amount of money for a clearer, yes, but also much more strictly enforced timeline.",[11,615,616,617,619],{},"7:20",[31,618],{},"\nOK, so let’s break down the anatomy of this investment then.",[11,621,622,623,625],{},"7:24",[31,624],{},"\nCitizen Mint calls this interconnection capital.",[11,627,628,629,631],{},"7:27",[31,630],{},"\nWhere does this actually sit in the capital stack?",[11,633,634,635,637],{},"7:30",[31,636],{},"\nIt’s not construction finance and it’s not early stage VC.",[11,639,640,641,643],{},"7:33",[31,642],{},"\nThink of the project life cycle in, say, 3 phases.",[11,645,646,647,649],{},"7:37",[31,648],{},"\nPhase one is development.",[11,651,652,653,655],{},"7:38",[31,654],{},"\nThat’s land acquisition, permitting, zoning.",[11,657,658,659,661],{},"7:42",[31,660],{},"\nIt’s super high risk.",[11,663,664,665,667],{},"7:43",[31,666],{},"\nYou might find an endangered bird on the land or the county board denies your permit.",[11,669,670,671,673],{},"7:47",[31,672],{},"\nThat’s binary risk.",[11,675,676,677,679],{},"7:48",[31,678],{},"\nYou lose, the value is zero, right?",[11,681,682,683,685],{},"7:50",[31,684],{},"\nThen you have phase 3, which is the long-term hold.",[11,687,688,689,691],{},"7:53",[31,690],{},"\nThe solar farm is built.",[11,693,694,695,697],{},"7:54",[31,696],{},"\nIt’s selling power to Amazon for 30 years.",[11,699,700,701,703],{},"7:57",[31,702],{},"\nThat’s basically a bond, low risk, low return.",[11,705,706,707,709],{},"8:00",[31,708],{},"\nSo interconnection capital is phase 2, the narrow band, as they call it.",[11,711,712,713,715],{},"8:04",[31,714],{},"\nThe developer has already secured the land and the permits, so that binary development risk is gone.",[11,717,718,719,721],{},"8:10",[31,720],{},"\nBut they haven’t started construction yet.",[11,723,724,725,727],{},"8:11",[31,726],{},"\nThey just need to post the deposit to finalize that grid connection.",[11,729,730,731,733],{},"8:15",[31,732],{},"\nSo an investor’s coming in after the project is de-risk from a permitting standpoint, but before the huge capital expense of construction.",[11,735,736,737,99],{},"8:23",[31,738],{},[11,740,736,741,743],{},[31,742],{},"\nIt’s a 12 to 24 month bridge.",[11,745,746,747,749],{},"8:25",[31,748],{},"\nYou’re essentially renting your balance sheet to the developer so they can get through this one administrative gate.",[11,751,752,753,755],{},"8:31",[31,754],{},"\nOK, let me play the skeptic here.",[11,757,758,759,761],{},"8:33",[31,760],{},"\nI’m an investor.",[11,763,764,765,767],{},"8:34",[31,766],{},"\nI put up $5 million for a deposit on a solar project.",[11,769,770,771,773],{},"8:38",[31,772],{},"\nThe study comes back.",[11,775,776,777,779],{},"8:39",[31,778],{},"\nAnd the grid operator says, Sure, you can connect, but it’s going to cost you $40 million in upgrades.",[11,781,782,783,785],{},"8:45",[31,784],{},"\nAnd the developer says, I can’t afford that.",[11,787,788,789,791],{},"8:47",[31,790],{},"\nRight?",[11,793,794,795,797],{},"8:48",[31,796],{},"\nThe Project dies.",[11,799,800,801,803],{},"8:50",[31,802],{},"\nMy $5 million is sitting with the utility.",[11,805,806,807,809],{},"8:52",[31,808],{},"\nIs it gone?",[11,811,812,813,815],{},"8:53",[31,814],{},"\nAnd this is the most critical part of the entire thesis refundability.",[11,817,818,819,821],{},"8:58",[31,820],{},"\nThis whole asset class relies on the regulatory obligation of the utility to return unspent funds.",[11,823,824,825,827],{},"9:04",[31,826],{},"\nRegulatory obligation sounds nice, but you know, regulations can have loopholes.",[11,829,830,831,833],{},"9:08",[31,832],{},"\nHow solid is this really?",[11,835,836,837,839],{},"9:09",[31,838],{},"\nIt’s surprisingly robust, and that’s because it’s not based on whether the project succeeds or fails.",[11,841,842,843,845],{},"9:14",[31,844],{},"\nIt’s based on the custody of the funds.",[11,847,848,849,851],{},"9:16",[31,850],{},"\nWhen you post that deposit, it goes into a restricted account held by the utility.",[11,853,854,855,857],{},"9:21",[31,856],{},"\nIt is not revenue for the utility, it’s a liability on their books.",[11,859,860,861,863],{},"9:24",[31,862],{},"\nSo if the developer just walks away, the utility can’t just keep it as some kind of cancellation fee.",[11,865,866,867,869],{},"9:30",[31,868],{},"\nUnder FERC rules and specifically in the tariffs for regions like New York, California, PJM.",[11,871,872,873,875],{},"9:37",[31,874],{},"\nThe utility can only keep the costs they’ve actually incurred, you know, the engineering hours they spent running the study.",[11,877,878,879,881],{},"9:43",[31,880],{},"\nI did see that FERC increased the withdrawal penalties to discourage speculation.",[11,883,884,885,887],{},"9:47",[31,886],{},"\nThey did, and they can be significant, but relative to the principal amount, we’re usually talking about a penalty structure that ramps up over time.",[11,889,890,891,893],{},"9:56",[31,892],{},"\nBut the vast majority of the capital, often 85 to 95% of it, must be returned by law.",[11,895,896,897,899],{},"10:02",[31,898],{},"\nThe sources mention the PG&E bankruptcy as kind of the ultimate stress test for this idea.",[11,901,902,903,905],{},"10:07",[31,904],{},"\nThat’s the in case of emergency break glass scenario.",[11,907,908,909,911],{},"10:11",[31,910],{},"\nI mean, when PG&E went under one of the biggest utility bankruptcies in history, there’s a real fear that these interconnection deposits would just get swept up by all the other creditors, right, treated like any other unsecured creditor.",[11,913,914,915,917],{},"10:21",[31,916],{},"\nBut the courts and the regulators held the line.",[11,919,920,921,923],{},"10:24",[31,922],{},"\nThey deemed those deposits to be customer funds, not utility property, and they were returned.",[11,925,926,927,929],{},"10:31",[31,928],{},"\nThat precedent suggests this capital is bankruptcy remote from the utility itself.",[11,931,932,933,935],{},"10:36",[31,934],{},"\nOK, so you have a regulated floor.",[11,937,938,939,941],{},"10:38",[31,940],{},"\nSo what about the upside?",[11,943,944,945,947],{},"10:39",[31,946],{},"\nExplain the return mechanics, because if I’m tying up my capital for 2 years, I need more than a savings account return.",[11,949,950,951,953],{},"10:45",[31,952],{},"\nOf course, the return profile is a kind of hybrid.",[11,955,956,957,959],{},"10:49",[31,958],{},"\nFirst, you often get the interest on the deposit itself.",[11,961,962,963,965],{},"10:52",[31,964],{},"\nIn a lot of places, Kansas, Oklahoma, New Mexico are examples.",[11,967,968,969,971],{},"10:56",[31,970],{},"\nThe utility is actually required to pay interest on those held funds.",[11,973,974,975,977],{},"10:59",[31,976],{},"\nOK, so that’s the base layer, a small return.",[11,979,980,981,983],{},"11:02",[31,982],{},"\nThen you have your deal with the developer.",[11,985,986,987,989],{},"11:04",[31,988],{},"\nThe developer will usually pay a coupon or an interest rate for the use of your capital.",[11,991,992,993,995],{},"11:08",[31,994],{},"\nBut the real upside comes from the equity kicker, the sweetener.",[11,997,998,999,1001],{},"11:12",[31,1000],{},"\nWhen the project successfully gets through the queue and reaches what’s called notice to proceed, it’s usually sold to a big long-term owner or it gets recapitalized at that liquidity event.",[11,1003,1004,1005,1007],{},"11:22",[31,1006],{},"\nThe interconnection investor gets a percentage of the project’s total value.",[11,1009,1010,1011,1013],{},"11:26",[31,1012],{},"\nThe sources estimate that at around 1.5 to 2% of the project value, which sounds small, but on a $100 million project, that’s up to $2 million straight to your bottom line on top of all the interest you already earned, right?",[11,1015,1016,1017,1019],{},"11:39",[31,1018],{},"\nAnd this brings us to the scenario modeling in the source material, which I found really counterintuitive.",[11,1021,1022,1023,1025],{},"11:44",[31,1024],{},"\nThey modeled a portfolio of 40 projects.",[11,1027,1028,1029,1031],{},"11:47",[31,1030],{},"\nI have the numbers right here.",[11,1033,1034,1035,1037],{},"11:48",[31,1036],{},"\nKA 100% success rate.",[11,1039,1040,1041,1043],{},"11:51",[31,1042],{},"\nEvery single project gets built.",[11,1045,1046,1047,1049],{},"11:52",[31,1048],{},"\nThe IRR is 16.8%, which is very strong for what is essentially a secured asset.",[11,1051,1052,1053,1055],{},"11:59",[31,1054],{},"\nBut look at Case B.",[11,1057,1058,1059,1061],{},"12:01",[31,1060],{},"\nA 40% success rate.",[11,1063,1064,1065,1067],{},"12:03",[31,1066],{},"\nSo that means 60% of the projects in the portfolio fail.",[11,1069,1070,1071,1073],{},"12:06",[31,1072],{},"\nThey get canceled, they die in the queue.",[11,1075,1076,1077,1079],{},"12:08",[31,1078],{},"\nIn venture capital, if 60% of your portfolio dies, you are out of business.",[11,1081,1082,1083,1085],{},"12:12",[31,1084],{},"\nAbsolutely.",[11,1087,1088,1089,1091],{},"12:13",[31,1090],{},"\nBut in interconnection capital, the model shows a 14.6% IRR in that failure scenario.",[11,1093,1094,1095,1097],{},"12:19",[31,1096],{},"\nWait, walk me through that.",[11,1099,1100,1101,1103],{},"12:20",[31,1102],{},"\nHow does the return only drop by 200 basis points when the failure rate more than doubles?",[11,1105,1106,1107,1109],{},"12:25",[31,1108],{},"\nBecause of the refundability.",[11,1111,1112,1113,1115],{},"12:27",[31,1114],{},"\nWhen a project fails, you don’t lose the principal.",[11,1117,1118,1119,1121],{},"12:30",[31,1120],{},"\nYou get the vast majority of your deposit back minus maybe a small penalty, and you probably still collected some interest during the time it was held.",[11,1123,1124,1125,99],{},"12:38",[31,1126],{},[11,1128,1129,1130,1132],{},"12:39",[31,1131],{},"\nThe only thing you miss out on is that equity kicker.",[11,1134,1135,1136,1138],{},"12:41",[31,1137],{},"\nI see.",[11,1140,1141,1142,1144],{},"12:42",[31,1143],{},"\nSo the floor is really high because the capital is preserved, not burned.",[11,1146,1147,1148,1150],{},"12:47",[31,1149],{},"\nIt’s this asymmetry where your downside is capped at the cost of your time and some small fees, but your capital recycled.",[11,1152,1153,1154,1156],{},"12:56",[31,1155],{},"\nIt creates a portfolio resilience that is completely decoupled from the price of electricity or the weather.",[11,1158,1159,1160,1162],{},"13:02",[31,1161],{},"\nYou’re not an energy speculator.",[11,1164,1165,1166,1168],{},"13:03",[31,1167],{},"\nYou’re an arbitrager of bureaucratic process.",[11,1170,1171,1172,1174],{},"13:06",[31,1173],{},"\nYou’re effectively turning the grid’s biggest bottleneck into a yield generating asset.",[11,1176,1177,1178,1180],{},"13:12",[31,1179],{},"\nI want to zoom out for a second though.",[11,1182,1183,1184,1186],{},"13:13",[31,1185],{},"\nWe’ve talked about the mechanics.",[11,1188,1189,1190,1192],{},"13:14",[31,1191],{},"\nWhat does this all mean for the energy transition at large?",[11,1194,1195,1196,1198],{},"13:17",[31,1197],{},"\nI think it means we’re moving from the innovation phase to the implementation phase, meaning the tech is basically done.",[11,1200,1201,1202,1204],{},"13:22",[31,1203],{},"\nNow we just have to actually build it.",[11,1206,1207,1208,1210],{},"13:24",[31,1209],{},"\nAnd building it is boring.",[11,1212,1213,1214,1216],{},"13:26",[31,1215],{},"\nIt’s plummits, it’s easements, it’s cube positions.",[11,1218,1219,1220,1222],{},"13:29",[31,1221],{},"\nThe sexy part of the energy transition is kind of over.",[11,1224,1225,1226,1228],{},"13:32",[31,1227],{},"\nThe hard part has just begun.",[11,1230,1231,1232,1234],{},"13:34",[31,1233],{},"\nIt feels like a shift in the power dynamics too.",[11,1236,1237,1238,1240],{},"13:37",[31,1239],{},"\nYou know, 10 years ago, the power was with the person in the lab coat who was inventing a better solar cell.",[11,1242,1243,1244,1246],{},"13:42",[31,1245],{},"\nFor sure.",[11,1248,1249,1250,1252],{},"13:44",[31,1251],{},"\nToday, the power is with the person who understands FERC Order 2023 and has the balance sheet to endure a 4 year wait time.",[11,1254,1255,1256,1258],{},"13:53",[31,1257],{},"\nIt’s a pretty sobering thought.",[11,1260,1261,1262,1264],{},"13:54",[31,1263],{},"\nWe often frame the energy transition as this, this inevitable technological wave.",[11,1266,1267,1268,1270],{},"14:00",[31,1269],{},"\nBut listening to this, it sounds like the whole thing could just stall out in a spreadsheet.",[11,1272,1273,1274,1276],{},"14:03",[31,1275],{},"\nIt absolutely could.",[11,1278,1279,1280,1282],{},"14:05",[31,1281],{},"\nIn fact, I would argue that without liquidity mechanisms like interconnection to capital, the transition will stall.",[11,1284,1285,1286,1288],{},"14:11",[31,1287],{},"\nIf we restrict grid access to only the players with billion dollar balance sheets, we lose all the dynamism of the market.",[11,1290,1291,1292,1294],{},"14:17",[31,1293],{},"\nWe need those mid-market developers to push boundaries and find new sites and drive costs down.",[11,1296,1297,1298,1300],{},"14:23",[31,1299],{},"\nSo in a way this financial engineering is just as critical as the electrical engineering.",[11,1302,1303,1304,1306],{},"14:26",[31,1305],{},"\nIt’s the lubricant.",[11,1308,1309,1310,1312],{},"14:28",[31,1311],{},"\nThe grid is the engine, but capital is the oil.",[11,1314,1315,1316,1318],{},"14:30",[31,1317],{},"\nWithout it, the engine seizes.",[11,1320,1321,1322,1324],{},"14:32",[31,1323],{},"\nSo to wrap this up, if you’re a listener trying to understand where the energy market is really going, Maybe stop looking at the solar panels.",[11,1326,1327,1328,1330],{},"14:39",[31,1329],{},"\nStop looking at the panels.",[11,1332,1333,1334,1336],{},"14:40",[31,1335],{},"\nLook at the queue.",[11,1338,1339,1340,1342],{},"14:42",[31,1341],{},"\nLook at the regulatory filings.",[11,1344,1345,1346,1348],{},"14:43",[31,1347],{},"\nThat’s where the constraints are.",[11,1350,1351,1352,1354],{},"14:45",[31,1353],{},"\nAnd in finance, profit is always found at the constraint.",[11,1356,1357,1358,1360],{},"14:49",[31,1359],{},"\nThe constraint is the opportunity.",[11,1362,1363,1364,1366],{},"14:51",[31,1365],{},"\nAlways a fascinating look into the plumbing of the grid.",[11,1368,1369,1370,1372],{},"14:55",[31,1371],{},"\nLeave it there.",[11,1374,1375,1376,1378],{},"14:56",[31,1377],{},"\nThanks for diving deep with us.",[11,1380,1381,1382,1384],{},"14:57",[31,1383],{},"\nMy pleasure.",[11,1386,1387],{},"First Pacific Financial is a registered investment adviser and the opinions expressed by First Pacific Financial on this show are their own and do not reflect the opinions of Citizen Mint. All statements and opinions expressed are based upon information considered reliable although it should not be relied upon as such. Any statements or opinions are subject to change without notice.",[11,1389,1390],{},"Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies. Investments involve risk and unless otherwise stated, are not guaranteed.",[11,1392,1393],{},"Information expressed does not take into account your specific situation or objectives, and is not intended as recommendations appropriate for any individual. Listeners are encouraged to seek advice from a qualified tax, legal, or investment adviser to determine whether any information presented may be suitable for their specific situation. Past performance is not indicative of future performance.",{"title":1395,"searchDepth":1396,"depth":1396,"links":1397},"",2,[],"podcast","2026-02-03","Listen to a discussion on the emerging opportunity of interconnection capital—a short-duration strategy designed to address critical grid bottlenecks while offering structural downside protection through regulatory refundability","md","\u002Fimages\u002Fresources\u002Finterconnection-capital-infrastructure-energy-transition.png",null,{},true,"\u002Fresources\u002Finterconnection-capital-infrastructure-energy-transition",{"title":5,"description":1400},"resources\u002Finterconnection-capital-infrastructure-energy-transition","OL2fsmYCo3Jr1aEEAT6G9wr7vRi0XrBkFe_rGZFVtlg",[1411,1689,1970],{"id":1412,"title":1413,"author":6,"body":1414,"category":1398,"date":1681,"description":1682,"extension":1401,"image":1683,"imageAlt":1403,"meta":1684,"navigation":1405,"path":1685,"seo":1686,"stem":1687,"__hash__":1688},"resources\u002Fresources\u002Faustin-peterson-backbone-planning-partners.md","Austin Peterson | Backbone Planning Partners",{"type":8,"value":1415,"toc":1679},[1416,1425,1430,1436,1439,1442,1445,1448,1451,1454,1457,1460,1463,1466,1469,1471,1474,1477,1480,1483,1486,1489,1492,1495,1498,1501,1504,1506,1509,1512,1515,1518,1521,1523,1526,1529,1532,1535,1538,1540,1543,1545,1548,1551,1554,1556,1559,1562,1565,1567,1570,1573,1576,1579,1582,1585,1588,1591,1594,1597,1600,1602,1605,1608,1611,1613,1616,1619,1622,1625,1628,1631,1634,1636,1639,1641,1644,1647,1650,1653,1656,1658,1661,1663,1666,1669,1672,1675,1677],[11,1417,1418,1419,1424],{},"Read transcript highlights or listen to the full episode to hear Austin Peterson of ",[21,1420,1423],{"href":1421,"rel":1422},"https:\u002F\u002Fbackboneplanning.com\u002F?utm_source=chatgpt.com",[25],"Backbone Planning Partners"," and Josh Hile discuss Austin’s background, the evolution of Backbone Planning Partners, how business owners can diversify wealth beyond their companies, and why thoughtful exit planning, tax-aware portfolio construction, and private markets can play an important role in building long-term financial independence.",[15,1426],{":height":1427,"title":1428,"url":1429},"100","Austin Peterson","https:\u002F\u002Fwww.buzzsprout.com\u002F2378225\u002Fepisodes\u002F19642787",[11,1431,1432,1435],{},[21,1433,26],{"href":1429,"rel":1434},[25],"\nJosh Hile: Welcome back to The Advisor View. I’m Josh Hile, CEO and co-founder of Citizen Mint. Each episode I sit down with wealth advisors to hear their journey, how they built their practice, and how they actually serve their clients on a day-to-day basis. Today I have Austin Peterson of Backbone Planning Partners. Thanks for jumping on, Austin. Maybe just to start, you can give us a quick background on yourself and kind of your journey into wealth management.",[11,1437,1438],{},"Austin Peterson: Yeah, yeah, I appreciate it, Josh. Um, excited to be here. So, uh, I’ve got a little different journey, I guess, into financial planning and wealth management. I grew up in a family that was pretty poor, did not have a financial advisor, wouldn’t have needed one. Um, my dad was an independent business owner, but pretty small. I mean, it was basically him and a couple of guys that kind of helped him out. And it was enough most of the time. But in 9th grade, I took a class that just kind of fit a hole in my schedule. I had to fill some sort of an elective in there, and it was called Entrepreneurship and the Stock Market. And it kind of just opened my eyes to what was out there. I don’t know that I even knew what the stock market was before then. And I’ll date myself, I’m clearly older than you are, Josh, but when we, when we were researching stocks in that class, we did so by looking up the tickers in the newspaper and then going to the library to find information. So a little different than stock research today, but that’s kind of what got me excited about it and realizing, man, I think I want to be a business owner and this stock market stuff is pretty cool. And that kind of launch that direction, because prior to that, I was, I was sure I was headed to law school, and that was the way that I saw a bright future for me.",[11,1440,1441],{},"Josh Hile: Okay. And then, um, I guess, like, maybe you can talk about that, like, you know, journey along, like, uh, you know, reading your bio, you know, you kind of go through a number of different iterations on your background and kind of where you were within that. like financial services realm. So maybe you can just give us a quick view to where— how you came all the way to where you are now, uh, and the backbone of Planning Partners.",[11,1443,1444],{},"Austin Peterson: Yeah, I mean, I originally got started in the business, I was 23 years old. Uh, I didn’t have any family with money. I didn’t have any friends with money. You know, when you’re 23, none of your friends have money. So kind of getting started was tough. I did okay, actually, looking back now and understanding how the industry works. But I was young, I had a child, and I needed something a little bit more stable. And so I went to work for Pacific Life Insurance Company.",[11,1446,1447],{},"Josh Hile: Yeah.",[11,1449,1450],{},"Austin Peterson: And then I just kind of bounced around at some different insurance companies and brokerages throughout the years before I finally realized that one, I want to get off the road, stop traveling as much as I am. And 2, now I’ve got some gray hairs not just on my head but in my, you know, in my beard. Um, it might be a little bit easier to kind of go back into business on my own. And so I, I made that transition back into personal practice, um, in 2019.",[11,1452,1453],{},"Josh Hile: And, um, yeah, so, and then maybe just kind of how you brought together Backbone Planning Partners and like you know, who your co-founder was and how that all kind of came together and like what you were trying to build. And because, I mean, like a lot of the wealth managers and financial planners we talked to, you know, it’s like they saw something in the industry that they didn’t like and then they’re like, okay, I want to build something different and here’s who I want to kind of serve with that different business.",[11,1455,1456],{},"Austin Peterson: Yeah, I think there was definitely part of that. You know, I got connected with my business partner, Landon Mance, through, um, basically just attending different conferences together, doing some meetings together. Uh, we were both with Lincoln Financial. That was actually my last stop on the, you know, on the insurance\u002Fcorporate side. And so when I jumped into the personal production side, I stayed with Lincoln as my broker-dealer and RIA at the time. He was already there. Um, we started doing a little bit of joint work together. And then ultimately became, you know, full-time partner starting in 2019. So, um, yeah, we, we basically saw that there was this gap, and we’re not the only ones that, that do this, but we’re definitely in the minority, um, with working with private business owners. And, and that’s, you know, the reality is, I hate to say it this way, but there are a lot of financial advisors, either if they’re working with business owners, they’ve got to have other investments to manage and something for them do, if they don’t have those investments, they’re basically going to walk right past a business owner until they know that the business owner is getting ready to sell because they see an ability to kind of make some money helping that business owner. And our model is just completely different. We look at it and say, well, look, these business owners need help getting their largest asset or their largest investment ready to be some sort of liquid investment in the future. And so we tell business owners that they should be hiring us 3 to 10 years before they are planning to exit so that we can help them not only get that business ready, but in the meantime, try to move some of their investments or their net worth, if you will, off of their business balance sheet and onto their personal balance sheet.",[11,1458,1459],{},"Josh Hile: Yeah, no, that makes sense. And, and why do you think your like you were drawn to business owners specifically?",[11,1461,1462],{},"Austin Peterson: Yeah, I mean, I grew up— my dad, like I said, he owned his own, his own business. My uncle owned his own business. And so I, I would say that I kind of grew up in this, you know, business owner background. And my business partner was the same way. His family was kind of all independent business owners his whole life. Um, but it was really that entrepreneurship class that I took in high school that sparked in me, I think I want to be a business owner. But there’s also this lack of advice in a lot of ways for business owners who are running really successful companies but not massively successful companies. Right? So think about anybody who runs a business that does $5 million in revenue up to maybe $100 million in revenue. Most of those business owners don’t have great advisors around them, and I’m sure that some people would listen to this and think that that sounds shocking to me to them. You know why would that be the case? But they’re just head down; they’re building their business. They they know they have something that’s providing them a good income, and they’re building a business that’s that’s great. But they don’t necessarily know what to do next: how to build it the right way, how to get it ready for that exit, how do we offset taxes today along the way? Is my estate plan set up correctly? Like, they know they have a CPA or need a CPA, but that’s— and maybe they need an attorney from time to time, but that’s kind of the extent of what most business owners have in terms of advisors.",[11,1464,1465],{},"Josh Hile: And so maybe you can walk us through the process from, you know, talking to that specific business owner and just because that’s your focus and like, what are you actually talking to them about, especially when they don’t have that liquidity event, you know, 6 months out, but a few years like 3 to 5 years out? Like, what do you actually work with them from a planning perspective?",[11,1467,1468],{},"Austin Peterson: Yeah, so I mean, step one is, is typically the, the D word, right? Diversification. You know, most investment advisors are thinking diversification with inside of an investment portfolio, but if they don’t have an investment portfolio, the only asset that they have is their business or maybe their primary residence. Then we talk to them about the importance of kind of diversifying away from that and recognizing that they do have a diversification issue or a risk issue, right? Because think of it this way, if somebody told me that they had a $50 million net worth and— or they told you that they had a $50 million net worth and it’s all in Tesla stock or Apple stock, you would think they were crazy, right? Because it’s tied into one company. Yet most of the time, if somebody tells you that they own a business that is valued at $50 million, your inclination is to say, congratulations, that’s amazing, you built something cool.",[11,1470,1447],{},[11,1472,1473],{},"Austin Peterson: One thing still exists, right? There’s still massive risk. And even though you control that company, there’s massive risk that’s tied— their entire net worth is tied to one asset or one investment. Yeah.",[11,1475,1476],{},"Josh Hile: Yeah. And then, so how do you create that diversification at that early stage in the business? Is that through being like, hey, we need to start allocating your salary to some other places, or what do you look at there?",[11,1478,1479],{},"Austin Peterson: Yeah, I mean, I would say that most of the clients we work with are not in the early stages, right? The startup stage where they’re just kind of maybe barely making a paycheck for themselves and trying to build things. It’s— they’ve typically been running the business for at least 5 years, and there’s a little bit of stability involved there. But the principles would remain the same, right? It’s like, let’s set up a 401 company— 401 for the company. Let’s make sure that you’ve got your own retirement accounts and maybe a, you know, traditional investment brokerage account or a trust-owned account or, you know, something like that. To just start that process of, you know, saving along the way. Because ideally what we tell our clients is, ideally when it’s time to sell your business, we’re hoping that you don’t need to sell that business to meet the financial goals that you have. We want you to be financially independent before we even think about selling the business. Not always feasible, right? Not always possible. But in an ideal scenario, we would like them to be financially independent before it’s time to do that. And a couple of reasons. One, peace of mind, right? We all know stories. I mean, Blockbuster is the one that gets thrown out all the time, right? But these stories of businesses that don’t end up actually being able to be sold, or— yeah, and there’s a high percentage of businesses in the country that just won’t. And that’s because most of them are, you know, mom-and-pop-owned companies. There’s no value there. There’s maybe a client list, whatever. And so if we can show them that they need to be financially independent without their business, if at all possible, they’ve got peace of mind that they’re going to be good no matter what. If the industry completely shifts and their business is not worth anything, but then when it does come time to go to the table and sell the business, You have full control at that point as to how that gets structured, who you sell it to, how you want to make it work, because you don’t need that money to be able to walk out the door and retire. You have full autonomy as to how you want to structure that, and it could be just gifting it to your kids because you don’t need the money. Why not just gift it to the kids and give them the ability to take it to the next level? So It just gives you options that don’t exist if you don’t build anything besides the business, right? Because what I hear all the time from business owners is my business is my retirement plan.",[11,1481,1482],{},"Josh Hile: Yeah. Yeah.",[11,1484,1485],{},"Austin Peterson: So we’re trying to avoid that.",[11,1487,1488],{},"Josh Hile: And how, like you mentioned that you usually try to help business owners in the process to get it ready for sale or some liquidity event, like How ingrained is that in kind of your model of like, you know, and how like are you essentially, do you get paid for any of that work? How do you actually like monetize the value you bring there?",[11,1490,1491],{},"Austin Peterson: Yeah, so we do charge financial planning fees to our business owner clients regardless, right? So the first year there’s always an upfront financial planning fee. And that’s to kind of get everything organized, know what’s going on, set up an actual plan. After that, it can be a hybrid, and we’ll just kind of see, you know, the way things look. If they have investments that they do need managed, and we can charge them an AUM-based fee like most investment managers charge, and that covers kind of our minimum. So we’ve, we’ve set our minimum at $12,000 a year per client. Right? And so if we can cover that in the assets that we’re managing for them, great. We’re not gonna double dip and charge additional inside of the business unless the complexity warrants it and there’s more time being spent. And that will be a joint conversation with the business owner. But if there’s not, a lot of our business owners are paying us a monthly, almost like a retainer that you would pay to a CPA or a an attorney to provide that ongoing advice. And depending on the business owner, it could be a monthly meeting, it could be quarterly, it could be twice a year. Just depends on where they are in, in the process, what the complexity is, if they have people on staff that are helping them with certain things that they need help with, they’ve got a good bookkeeper, good CPA, you know, whatever the case may be. But, um, so it can vary quite a bit. just based on the complexity. But we’re looking at all the things that you might think that we’d be looking at, right? What does your cash flow look like? What does your balance sheet look like? What does your management team look like? What can we do to start offloading some of the things that you do on a day-to-day basis as the business owner so that you can be freed up to do the things that you’re uniquely qualified to do and that drives the business to the next level? Because The reality is, if you could take 6 months off and walk away from the business and have the business maintain, or better yet, grow during that 6-month period because your entire team is set up to do that, your business is worth massively more than if you’re ingrained and doing everything day to day.",[11,1493,1494],{},"Josh Hile: Yeah, yeah. No, that’s such a key point. So Maybe just thinking about this and thinking about the ways that business owners, because as a business owner myself, both you and I, like, what do you see business owners, what are their biggest mistakes? Because I know they can get so focused on the business and so they’re not always thinking about the financials. And so what do you see as kind of continual mistakes that you see business owners make from a financial perspective?",[11,1496,1497],{},"Austin Peterson: Yeah, I mean, I, I would say number one that I see is not being willing or able to delegate.",[11,1499,1500],{},"Josh Hile: Hmm.",[11,1502,1503],{},"Austin Peterson: Um, that, that holds back businesses so much. You know, you’re, you’re gonna hit a plateau if you can’t start to delegate. And some, for some people that plateau is higher, but for most people, you hit that plateau, you can’t go any further. And we hear stuff like, well, they They just don’t get it, or I’m the only one who understands that, or you know they don’t care as much as I do. All of those things are true, but if they can’t get over that and understand that if you can delegate a task to somebody and they can do it even at 70% of how good you would do that that same task, it needs to be delegated to somebody else. Yeah, because you need to be able to go out and do what you do best, and a lot of times that’s. business development, sometimes it’s vision, you know, sometimes it’s strategy. But, you know, if you’re, if you’re the one who’s entering stuff into the books or, you know, you’re paying the bills or, you know, whatever the case may be, it’s just, it’s not a good use of your time. And you can pay somebody a lot less than your hourly rate to do that for you.",[11,1505,1447],{},[11,1507,1508],{},"Austin Peterson: But the biggest value is giving you your time back to focus on those high-value activities.",[11,1510,1511],{},"Josh Hile: Yeah. Yeah. Sales. That’s the highest value activity every single time.",[11,1513,1514],{},"Austin Peterson: Yeah. They say sales cures all, right? But I don’t know if that’s fully true, but it definitely helps.",[11,1516,1517],{},"Josh Hile: Yeah. So, and then maybe just when you’re talking to business owners, because this is probably something that you always have to balance, but this idea of, you know, if it’s a cash flow machine kind of business, It’s like, how much do you reinvest in that business and use that for working capital to grow the business versus essentially pulling money out of the business for those— through those distributions and getting their investments started? And you kind of mentioned it about really like getting them less dependent on the business, but how do those conversations go?",[11,1519,1520],{},"Austin Peterson: Yeah, I mean, it’s tough early on, right? Because I’ve heard thousands of times, well, I can reinvest this money back into the business and my profit margin is X, pick a number, 30%. So, can you give me an investment that pays 30%? I mean, I hear that all the time.",[11,1522,1447],{},[11,1524,1525],{},"Austin Peterson: And it’s a very difficult thing early on to get past because there’s truth to it. But again, at some point, they either hit the plateau, but they definitely are not diversifying, right? So, you can look at Tesla and it had periods of time where the rates of return were north of 30%. but then they have a big downturn, right? And so regardless, every portfolio— and that’s the biggest shift, is getting them to view their business as an investment rather than their business or their job, right? And so if you view it as an investment, yes, you want to reinvest in that business as much as you can to kind of drive that, but there has to be some diversification built in. So What’s the optimal way to grow? What can we do? So what can we do safely? How can we add people quickly enough to do it without breaking the machine? Like, let’s, let’s make responsible decisions the way that a CFO would guide you to drive those decisions or make those decisions. And then the rest, we need to start to build towards your financial independence. And so that’s easier to figure out, right? How much do you need to live on in today’s dollars and how do we build that?",[11,1527,1528],{},"Josh Hile: Okay.",[11,1530,1531],{},"Austin Peterson: Well, you’re gonna plan on running the business until this date. So in order to pull that off, you need to be saving this much money. So can you carve that much out of the business? If you wanna reinvest the rest, I can get on board. I may point out a few other things that you should be looking at and investing, but we’re definitely on the side of helping you grow your business by reinvesting. But we still need that diversification to be a key part of your plan.",[11,1533,1534],{},"Josh Hile: Okay. And then what about just how you build portfolios for these particular clients? Like, how do you start out those portfolios? How do you build them over time? I know you mentioned tax management and thinking about, you know, before and after an exit and how you’re going to manage taxes in those ways. What does that actually look like in practicality?",[11,1536,1537],{},"Austin Peterson: Yeah, so we’re, we’re actually pretty big believers in private or alternative investments.",[11,1539,1447],{},[11,1541,1542],{},"Austin Peterson: Um, we certainly have a heavy lean towards public investments, as most investment managers do.",[11,1544,1447],{},[11,1546,1547],{},"Austin Peterson: Um, but in terms of, you know, RIAs that are out there, I would say that we’re definitely on the, on the edge of RIAs that are putting more in alternatives than most.",[11,1549,1550],{},"Josh Hile: Yep.",[11,1552,1553],{},"Austin Peterson: You know, so most people would talk about, you know, an 80\u002F20 portfolio, right? 80% equities, 20% fixed income or bonds. Uh, whatever the portfolio is, the equity portion will be what the equity portion is, and maybe there’s some alternative equities in there. But on the fixed income side, rather than it being 20% fixed income, it’s likely going to be 10% fixed income and the other 10% some sort of alternative investment.",[11,1555,1447],{},[11,1557,1558],{},"Austin Peterson: Because here’s what I know about working with business owners for as long as I’ve been working with business owners. Now, 2019, back in personal production, but a good portion of the planning work that I’ve done the entire 27 years was business owner focused. And, and what I’ve learned is there’s 2 types of investments that business owners like: other businesses and real estate.",[11,1560,1561],{},"Josh Hile: Mm-hmm.",[11,1563,1564],{},"Austin Peterson: Those, those are the 2 that they, that they, they like, and it’s because they understand them better and they feel like it’s tangible, right? Like if I own a real estate investment, a, uh, you know, an Airbnb property, short-term rental, long-term rental, whatever, like I can go and put my hands physically on that. Um, that’s just kind of where they, they feel. And then on the private business, like they may know the business owner or they’re investing in a startup that they, that they know. Now they don’t connect that there might be a much higher risk with that than just buying Apple stock, right?",[11,1566,1447],{},[11,1568,1569],{},"Austin Peterson: But that’s where their mind goes because I, you know, I’ve heard it 1,000 times. Well, this stock market, like, it just reprices every day and it’s just whatever they think that it’s worth. That’s kind of a typical response from business owners and it just comes down to not fully understanding it all the time. Um, but we play into that and say, look, we’re with you. You should have private investments in your portfolio. Foundations have been doing it for years, you know, pensions, all these types of large institutional investors have been doing it. Now it’s becoming more mainstream and available to individual investors through their financial advisors. So we will deploy part of your capital into that. But history is on our side here. Public markets, they are efficient, they do work. Let’s have some investment here, but we’ll sprinkle in the private side as well.",[11,1571,1572],{},"Josh Hile: And where do you usually play on the private side? And does any of those private investments play into your tax strategy for the business owners?",[11,1574,1575],{},"Austin Peterson: Yeah, they definitely do. I mean, there’s some different real estate plays that we will do where there’s an added tax benefit to the business owner to offset passive income, for example, or if they’re a real estate professional, it can be against their— their, uh, uh, what am I thinking of?",[11,1577,1578],{},"Josh Hile: W-2 income.",[11,1580,1581],{},"Austin Peterson: Yeah, yeah, their W-2 income or whatever income they make, you know, earned income was what I was searching for. And so, yeah, we will play into all kinds of strategies that are going to be beneficial to the client, whether it’s Qualified Opportunity Zone fund or different, you know, gas stations and truck stops, different things like that to kind of help offset the taxes. Got it.",[11,1583,1584],{},"Josh Hile: And then what about just like, so is it usually about a 10% sizing on the private market side for your clients?",[11,1586,1587],{},"Austin Peterson: It’s typically half of whatever the fixed income side of the portfolio would be based on their risk tolerance and time horizon.",[11,1589,1590],{},"Josh Hile: Got it. Got it. And then do you do any of the other things around like 1\u002F30\u002F30s long-short to try and prepare for capital gains exits?",[11,1592,1593],{},"Austin Peterson: Yep. Yep. So we’re actually in the process of setting some of those accounts up currently because we’ve got clients that have exited recently and have exits coming up. And so that is a strategy that we will deploy in the right way. it takes on some additional risk, right? And they’ve got to understand what, what they’re doing there, but, um, it can be very beneficial to the client.",[11,1595,1596],{},"Josh Hile: And so if, like, when you’re talking to a business owner, I guess, for the first time, what should business owners think about wealth planning? Because I’m sure there’s business owners out there that are just like, like, do I even need a financial advisor? Or what are you going to help me with? And so it— what should they— how should they think of you as kind of like for what you provide to them? Because I’m sure the value you provide is incredibly high, especially compared to a lot of financial advisors. So I think, I think it would be, you know, just hitting on that.",[11,1598,1599],{},"Austin Peterson: Yeah, we, I mean, we sure hope that the, that the value is there. We, we think it is. The feedback that we receive from our current clients is that, that the value is there. Um, I would say about half of our clients worked with an advisor previous to us, and they do see a night and day difference in what we do, right? Just the understanding of the business and weighing in on those types of things sets us apart. But there’s kind of 2 ways that I would look at it. One, I would say they should look at us as a partner.",[11,1601,1447],{},[11,1603,1604],{},"Austin Peterson: We’re definitely taking on an advisory role, But we’re really going to partner with them to kind of get their business to where they want it to be and that they can exit or transfer that business the way that they want to do that or envision doing that. And sometimes that changes, right? I mean, we’ve— we have a client recently where we just changed the way that the trust is structured and the way that she’s going to transition her business because she kind of changed her mind on how she wanted to do it. And once she realized that we had her on a path to be financially independent no matter what, it gave her an opportunity to say, well, gosh, I might not want or need to sell this business. So let’s structure it in a way that I can have my kids ready to take over. I can offset some of my estate taxes along the way. And if they ultimately don’t want to be involved, okay, we’ll sell the business anyway, but I’ve already gifted shares to them. So it’s going into their trust, not mine, because I don’t need it. So, you know, there’s, they’re seeing the difference along the way with the value that we provide. But the way that we kind of look at it overall is that you should see us as the quarterback of your team, and we will help you coordinate and collaborate with your other advisors. So it’s common for us to be on meetings like this. with the CPA, with the estate planning attorney, with their business attorney, with their CFO, to make sure that everything’s being coordinated and collaborated together rather than getting advice from each of those people in a vacuum.",[11,1606,1607],{},"Josh Hile: Mm-hmm. Got it. And do you see any changes happening to— or like, where do you see kind of the business owner planning evolving over the next 3 to 5 years?",[11,1609,1610],{},"Austin Peterson: Uh, that’s a good question. I mean, there’s definitely more technology that’s coming into play. AI is, is changing a lot of things, even in, in what we do. Um, it’s making us more efficient in the way that we operate our practice and gives us the ability to be more present with our clients, right?",[11,1612,1447],{},[11,1614,1615],{},"Austin Peterson: Because I mean, rather than me making notes and writing everything down, my AI note-taker is capturing all that information and I’m present with the client, looking in their eyes and hearing what they’re saying, right? So I definitely think that those things are helping to benefit. I do think that there’s going to have to be more people who enter the marketplace doing what I do because we can’t cover everybody. We’re a small-ish shop, right? We’re not Fidelity or Vanguard or any of the groups that are out there. that are that large. But because there is such a massive transition of wealth that’s going to happen specifically with business owners, there’s going to be an increased number of advisors, I think, that are going to become ready to do this type, to provide this type of advice and do this type of work for business owners.",[11,1617,1618],{},"Josh Hile: And maybe that’s a good question to just dig in on. Because, okay, so I would assume most of these business owners are essentially closer to the end of their career. Some are holding these businesses even after they’re 65, and then their kids don’t want the business in most cases. And so how do you develop that kind of relationship with the next gen as well? Because I know that’s, you know, they have the stats out there. It’s like next gen fires advisor within 6 months of Yeah, there being a transition of wealth. So what does that look like for you and kind of the business owners you’re working with?",[11,1620,1621],{},"Austin Peterson: Yeah, so I mean, the biggest thing that we do in that area is offering to do family meetings with the client and their kids. Gives us an opportunity to meet the kids, to understand what it is that they understand about the whole situation and what their intentions are. It takes the pressure off of the business owner themselves or the mom or the dad. to have that conversation without like a professional there who’s saying, hey, this is kind of what the trust says, this is what, you know, to expect. So that’s, that’s the biggest thing that we do. The other thing to kind of keep in mind is, you know, all advisors, us included, don’t always necessarily want to hold on to the clients to the next generation because a good client to us that has 5 children might be 5 so-so clients and the business is not around any longer. It doesn’t really play to our strengths. And so we might help facilitate that getting to another advisor in that particular instance. But when it’s appropriate and there’s a desire, we will certainly service into the next generation. And we have younger advisors who work for us who are prepared and ready to kind of take that take that on as well so that there’s not even a concern about me. I’m not, I’m not young, but I’m not old, right? I’m going to be 50 next, or the end of this week I’ll be 50.",[11,1623,1624],{},"Josh Hile: Well, congrats.",[11,1626,1627],{},"Austin Peterson: Yeah, thank you. But, uh, it’s, you know, we’ve got a plan for the next generation as well. But family meetings is the, is the most important thing I think that we do to kind of make sure that the next generation is taken care of, whether it’s with us or just overall.",[11,1629,1630],{},"Josh Hile: Okay. What about, and this, I’m just interested on your take. You kind of mentioned AI as a way to get you more efficient. How do you think that affects the industry as a whole and kind of wealth management in general? You know, obviously there’s these AI wealth managers popping up here and there, a little bit different than robo-advisors given the capabilities are a little bit different, but just your thoughts on what that will do.",[11,1632,1633],{},"Austin Peterson: Yeah, I mean, I remember when the robo-advisor kind of came onto the scene and everybody said there’s going to be massive fee compression and we’re going to lose a bunch of clients, and it just, it didn’t happen. Um, there were some younger clients who were, who were using it and, and okay with it. The, the problem that exists is that personal connection can’t ever be replicated by AI.",[11,1635,1447],{},[11,1637,1638],{},"Austin Peterson: Can, can they get you to the right answer? Most of the time, right? We all know that there are flaws in AI and the answers that are given sometimes, but most of the time you’re going to get to the right answer. But there’s a couple of things. One, the client doesn’t know for sure that they got the right answer because they might not know the right questions to ask ChatGPT or any of the other, you know, search engines that are out there. And then they just don’t know they can’t have a conversation with you to understand the emotions behind the decision that’s being made.",[11,1640,1447],{},[11,1642,1643],{},"Austin Peterson: That just, it can’t ever be replicated by AI. So I don’t think that it’s gonna replace, but I do see that it could have maybe a larger impact than we saw with the robo-advisors. But I don’t think that they can ever replace the human side of of personalized financial planning.",[11,1645,1646],{},"Josh Hile: Yeah. Um, so to close us out, uh, I always like to ask this question, which is a little bit of a curveball, but what’s one thing that people don’t know about you or one hobby that you have?",[11,1648,1649],{},"Austin Peterson: Uh, well, you can see my background. I’m a massive baseball fan. Um, the Red Sox are my team, but I’m, I’m trying to visit all of the parks in the country. So that’s a map of all the parks. I visited about half of them so far. Um, but so that’s one thing.",[11,1651,1652],{},"Josh Hile: But then what’s your favorite other than Fenway?",[11,1654,1655],{},"Austin Peterson: Oh, my favorite other than Fenway. Um, I would probably say Wrigley. Yeah, I mean, when I turned 30, I saw the old Yankee Stadium, Fenway Park, and Wrigley Field on 3 successive days. I saw games at at those parks. And so Wrigley definitely, I would say, is probably second to Fenway. Both of those fan bases are very engaged fan bases. They’re watching very closely. It’s not phones out, I’m sitting at a baseball game, but they’re watching every pitch. They might even be scoring the game in the scorebook. I mean, there’s engaged fans.",[11,1657,1447],{},[11,1659,1660],{},"Austin Peterson: Um, I would say that for sure. But probably the thing that most people don’t know about me, even my clients, um, for the most part, is that I would consider myself an adrenaline junkie.",[11,1662,1528],{},[11,1664,1665],{},"Austin Peterson: If there’s adrenaline involved, I’m, I’m interested. So I fly airplanes, I’ve been skydiving, I’ve been bungee jumping. In 2 weeks, I’m hiking Mount Kilimanjaro. Like, I— if there’s some sort of adrenaline involved, I am interested.",[11,1667,1668],{},"Josh Hile: Okay. I love that. No, that’s awesome. That is a good one. And well, I appreciate the time so much and really thank you for being on and excited to, for everybody to learn more about how to service business owners.",[11,1670,1671],{},"Austin Peterson: Yeah, no, thanks for having me. I appreciate it.",[11,1673,1674],{},"Backbone Planning Partners is a registered investment adviser and the opinions expressed by Backbone Planning Partners on this show are their own and do not reflect the opinions of Citizen Mint. All statements and opinions expressed are based upon information considered reliable although it should not be relied upon as such. Any statements or opinions are subject to change without notice.",[11,1676,1390],{},[11,1678,1393],{},{"title":1395,"searchDepth":1396,"depth":1396,"links":1680},[],"2026-08-13","In our sixteenth episode, Austin Peterson of Backbone Planning Partners shares his perspective on wealth management for business owners, discussing diversification beyond the business, preparing for future liquidity events, tax-aware portfolio construction, and how private markets can help entrepreneurs build financial independence outside of their companies.","\u002Fimages\u002Fresources\u002Faustin-peterson-backbone-planning-partners.png",{},"\u002Fresources\u002Faustin-peterson-backbone-planning-partners",{"title":1413,"description":1682},"resources\u002Faustin-peterson-backbone-planning-partners","atTLXStT1OZycQvEqVwK0JNO8v6zkrrE0QWhHHf77ak",{"id":1690,"title":1691,"author":6,"body":1692,"category":1398,"date":1962,"description":1963,"extension":1401,"image":1964,"imageAlt":1403,"meta":1965,"navigation":1405,"path":1966,"seo":1967,"stem":1968,"__hash__":1969},"resources\u002Fresources\u002Fstephen-lewis-future-first-finance.md","Stephen Lewis | Future First Finance",{"type":8,"value":1693,"toc":1960},[1694,1703,1706,1712,1715,1718,1720,1723,1726,1729,1732,1735,1737,1740,1743,1746,1748,1751,1753,1756,1758,1761,1764,1767,1770,1773,1775,1778,1780,1783,1785,1788,1790,1793,1796,1799,1801,1804,1806,1809,1811,1814,1817,1820,1822,1825,1827,1830,1833,1836,1839,1842,1845,1848,1850,1853,1855,1858,1861,1864,1867,1870,1873,1876,1878,1881,1883,1886,1889,1892,1894,1897,1900,1903,1905,1908,1911,1914,1917,1920,1923,1926,1928,1931,1933,1936,1939,1942,1944,1947,1950,1953,1956,1958],[11,1695,1696,1697,1702],{},"Read transcript highlights or listen to the full episode to hear Stephen Lewis of ",[21,1698,1701],{"href":1699,"rel":1700},"https:\u002F\u002Ffuturefirstfinance.com\u002F",[25],"Future First Finance"," and Josh Hile discuss Stephen’s background, the evolution of Future First Finance, how climate-focused investing and the energy transition are reshaping long-term portfolio construction, and why disciplined investment management and private markets can play an important role in building resilient portfolios for the future.",[15,1704],{"title":1691,"url":1705},"https:\u002F\u002Fwww.buzzsprout.com\u002F2378225\u002Fepisodes\u002F19570548",[11,1707,1708],{},[21,1709,26],{"href":1710,"rel":1711},"https:\u002F\u002Fwww.buzzsprout.com\u002F2378225\u002Fepisodes\u002F19570548-stephen-lewis-future-first-finance",[25],[11,1713,1714],{},"Josh Hile: This is Josh Heil with AdvisorView Podcast. I’m the CIO and CEO of Citizen Mint. And today I have Steve Lewis of Future First Finance. And Steve, thank you so much for joining us. Maybe just to start out, you can give us your background and kind of your path into wealth management.",[11,1716,1717],{},"Stephen Lewis: Yeah, great question. Thank you for having me. Looking forward to this. I got into wealth Wealth Management about a year and a half ago. Been managing my own portfolio for roughly 20 years, focused on climate as part of the portfolio metrics, really since like back in the Al Gore days and Inconvenient Truth and thinking about this matters, what we invest in matters. And so I was talking to other people, trying to get them to kind of see things my way, thinking about how your portfolio has an impact outside of general financial metrics. A lot of people really thought it was an interesting presentation, but didn’t want to do the financial management I was doing and asked me to do it for them. I said, well, I can’t do that. I don’t have a license, et cetera.",[11,1719,1447],{},[11,1721,1722],{},"Stephen Lewis: Yeah. But then decided maybe I should do that. I really liked this stuff and I’m ready for a career change anyway. So that’s how I ended up here.",[11,1724,1725],{},"Josh Hile: Yeah. And so what was your career before, just so people understand kind of what that looked like?",[11,1727,1728],{},"Stephen Lewis: Mostly software consulting, project management. type stuff for software in the healthcare sphere.",[11,1730,1731],{},"Josh Hile: Yeah. So very different, but like, kind of like you managing those portfolios and trying to help others do that. And so how did you come up with the name for your firm? And maybe you can talk about like the demographics of maybe some of the people like, or of who is coming to you and wanting help.",[11,1733,1734],{},"Stephen Lewis: The name was 100% my wife.",[11,1736,1528],{},[11,1738,1739],{},"Stephen Lewis: Came up with it, and I thought the alliteration was great. And also thinking about, you know, you’re investing for the future if you’re, you know, investing for your retirement or whatever, 10 or 15, 20 years out. It’s like thinking about what the future is going to look like in 20 years and investing for where trends are heading. And then also kind of the future that you want to retire in.",[11,1741,1742],{},"Josh Hile: Yeah. And how do you separate just thinking about like, your kind of impact focus, climate focus, how do you separate that from like ESG, or is it the same, or do you think about it differently?",[11,1744,1745],{},"Stephen Lewis: ESG really frustrates me. I think most people are frustrated by it, but also see it as a useful tool. There’s a couple of problems. One is that looping all these different concerns or problems all together into one overall metric and say, this company has a high ESG rating, this company has low rating. When you’re just mixing all this stuff together, one could be really good for social communities, one could be really good for climate impact and bad for social communities. How do you put one score to that? But people just want a very simple metric. And now it’s expanded where like everything was rated. This morning I was looking at a short-term government bond fund, basically Treasury bills with an ESG rating. I’m like, what does an ESG rating mean on government debt? That just doesn’t make any sense to me. So that’s part of the problem. And then also part of the problem is if you really want to have impact, you’ve got to look— this is kind of a key thesis of my firm, that if you want to have impact, you’ve got to look for where there’s capital needs and what is that investment driving. Are you investing in a growth company that’s trying to raise capital via debt or equity, public markets or private markets, all this type of stuff where your investment actually gets to that company and drives their their progress or their potential success forward? Or are you just swapping from some other investor in an already stable company that’s been paying back shareholders and dividends and sharebacks for decades that has no impact? And that’s so much of the ESG portfolio, right? Is that like, maybe it’s something that you can feel good about owning, but I’m not about feeling good. I’m about actually driving impact.",[11,1747,1447],{},[11,1749,1750],{},"Stephen Lewis: So, Becky, you’d asked previously what, what my clients are like, what’s my typical client.",[11,1752,1447],{},[11,1754,1755],{},"Stephen Lewis: Really, like any advisor, you have a huge range, right, from quite wealthy to, uh, to not as wealthy. Um, but all of them are obviously quite concerned about climate impact and see that I’m offering something that they haven’t heard from any other advisor.",[11,1757,1447],{},[11,1759,1760],{},"Stephen Lewis: And so then obviously depending on wealth, then I might propose a lot more private market stuff if that’s appropriate for them based on their timeline, all that stuff. But that’s really the only unifying thing is that is something when they come to me, get referred to me, hear about me, whatever, they are already quite concerned about climate and they’ve already drawn the connection between how you invest your money matters, how we invest for the future matters. And so they’re just looking for someone who has some more expertise in that.",[11,1762,1763],{},"Josh Hile: Yeah. And is there any specific geographic demographics of your clients? Like, are they near to you or are there any other defining features beyond climate? And maybe it’s not, maybe it’s just like they’re across the board, like from an age perspective, from a demographic or from a geography perspective. What does it look like there?",[11,1765,1766],{},"Stephen Lewis: They tilt older, near retirement, like kind of the average RIA. Yeah, but no, pretty geographic dispersed. Okay. Because again, I’m offering something like pretty niche. And so people who hear about that are interested.",[11,1768,1769],{},"Josh Hile: And how are they finding you? How does it, like, is it like, I would assume some level of referrals, but how are you also getting out there to understand that people should think about this or I’m the person to be helping you with this?",[11,1771,1772],{},"Stephen Lewis: My successful hit rate has been 100% word of mouth.",[11,1774,1447],{},[11,1776,1777],{},"Stephen Lewis: Word spreads through like climate activist communities, you know, people that are involved in Third Act or Sierra Club or all these types of clubs that are trying to lobby for climate stuff. Been trying to branch out of that, get in front of more people, because my kind of driving ethos too is that I want more people to think like me and invest like me, have my perspective, whether or not you’re paying me to manage your funds or not.",[11,1779,1447],{},[11,1781,1782],{},"Stephen Lewis: If I can give you some pointers and invest your own, you know, the DIYers that want to do that, I would be happy to give some free advice to people and say, you know, here’s what you could do if you want to have real impact. I’ve said for a long time, rather than putting all your money in some like Green Century Fund or Carbon Collective or all these different, you know, fund managers that are focused on that, that I think are mostly irrelevant from an impact perspective.",[11,1784,1447],{},[11,1786,1787],{},"Stephen Lewis: perspective, that put 5% of your portfolio in a few companies that are maybe growth stage or sustainable infrastructure type companies who have a need for access to capital markets, put 5% in that and you will have far more impact than 100% of your portfolio going in some Green Century Fund that’s mostly US large-cap tech.",[11,1789,1447],{},[11,1791,1792],{},"Stephen Lewis: Just for example. And then of course I have clients who want 50% of their portfolio in that and can withstand a high level of risk. And so then we can accommodate that too. But for just the average person, start at 5%, you’re already doing more than almost anyone out there.",[11,1794,1795],{},"Josh Hile: Yeah. And how does that— so I mean, it really feels like a bespoke model of what you’re trying to do for your clients. So how do you build those kind of customized portfolios? What does that actually look like? Does that involve more direct indexing kind of opportunities? like excluding certain companies? Like, how do you do that from like an actual like implementation perspective for the clients?",[11,1797,1798],{},"Stephen Lewis: So again, there’s huge variations on this, but the basic model, especially for like a smaller, simpler portfolio, is start with a basis of diversified index-like funds. I’m a big fan of Avantis and Dimensional Fund Advisors. ‘Cause they have funds that are very low fee, very low turnover, tax efficient, et cetera, and index-like. So they aren’t tied to adding huge new IPOs right on IPO date, for example, just to throw out one recently relevant point.",[11,1800,1447],{},[11,1802,1803],{},"Stephen Lewis: But they have sustainable funds. Dimensional underweights fossil fuels pretty significantly, meaning they have less than the benchmark. But then they look at carbon emissions across industries. And so they have much lower, something like 80% on average, lower emissions per dollar of revenue compared to a standard index fund. Because they focus on industrials, utilities, and kind of those high-emitting industries more than just the fossil fuels, which I think is, from that perspective, is probably more important. Avantis is fossil fuel-free, but otherwise a very similar strategy. So that’s going to build the basis of your equity exposure. And then on the debt side, I mostly want to be right now in short-term treasuries or short-term investment grade. I don’t want to take any duration risk with, I think, where the sort of debt metrics are heading.",[11,1805,1447],{},[11,1807,1808],{},"Stephen Lewis: And secondly too, is that’s partly to balance out a lot of my sustainable investments are infrastructure-like, which is kind of like a long-duration bond in many respects. So that’s why I would underweight normal long-term bond exposure because the infrastructure balances that out.",[11,1810,1447],{},[11,1812,1813],{},"Stephen Lewis: Yeah.",[11,1815,1816],{},"Josh Hile: And then just thinking about that from a client perspective, how do you think about the private market side of a client’s portfolio from an asset allocation sizing perspective? And how do you differentiate that across clients and maybe just your thought processes there?",[11,1818,1819],{},"Stephen Lewis: I approach private markets first and foremost as it’s probably the best place for real impact because cost of capital is even more relevant there and like access, can they get their offering fully subscribed, et cetera, that really matters.",[11,1821,1447],{},[11,1823,1824],{},"Stephen Lewis: And they’re smaller, et cetera. So that is for the clients who can take higher overall risk in their portfolio and really wanna lean into impact. private markets have to be in.",[11,1826,1550],{},[11,1828,1829],{},"Stephen Lewis: So that’s my basis for analysis rather than thinking, oh, every client above $1 million should have 20% in private assets, or half in private equity and half in private credit, et cetera. It’s more thinking like, these are for people who want to drive impact, have a higher risk potential, longer timeframe, et cetera. And then what makes sense from that perspective and what is What is really effective impact? So then I’m less worried at having like a perfectly balanced portfolio because they can accept higher risk and want to put climate first, et cetera.",[11,1831,1832],{},"Josh Hile: Yeah. And what percentage of a portfolio would that look like for some of your clients?",[11,1834,1835],{},"Stephen Lewis: The highest percent of portfolio is probably only, right now is probably only 25%. Yeah. And I would be comfortable with going higher than that for some clients if there were enough good opportunities. Yeah. And maybe I could see conceivably up to like 50% in some situations. But generally for, I mean, you know, the average person, obviously if they’re not an accredited investor, then it’s irrelevant, right? If they are, then I, you know, say they have a million portfolio, like right at the cutoff line, even then, I don’t know, maybe 10%, but that’s kind of stretching it depending on what private method you’re talking about. So it’s just, there’s no one guideline that you can say, oh, privates should always be 20%. I’m not in that boat.",[11,1837,1838],{},"Josh Hile: So yeah, yeah, I 100% agree. It just depends on the specific client situation is really what it comes down to. And then what about just how you try and balance impact versus risk-adjusted returns over time. And like, how do your clients think about that? Like, do they want to be concessionary? Do they not want to be concessionary? How do you think about it as a fiduciary for your clients?",[11,1840,1841],{},"Stephen Lewis: That is the hardest question to answer. Because part of it is like even knowing if you’re concessionary, you know, I mean, the market purists, market fundamentalists, you know, of which Dimensional and Avantis are going to be kind of market fundamentalists. They say you can’t have impact unless you’re concessionary. By definition, that’s the only way you can have impact, because otherwise market efficiency will just drive it to whatever. So if you actually want to push impact forward, you have to accept concessionary returns. I’m not a market purist to that extreme, thinking that, oh yeah, markets are just always perfectly efficient. I think about too, on some of my riskier stuff, what’s helped me stay invested during heightened volatility periods, when things are crashing during COVID or whatever, is thinking, no, you know what? All these things that are very interest rate sensitive and are bombing, I bought them for impact, not because I was looking for a return over next year. And that helped me stay the course. And those obviously rebounded quite quickly and did well. So I think that’s one perspective because obviously staying the course is one of the most important things for investors when volatility spikes. So whether to take concessionary returns, I talk about some of my picks within the public market is I think I’m always shooting for at least a market return, but expect that there will be higher volatility and maybe higher risk, which is— Risk adjusted, maybe a potentially lower return, but that adjustment is mostly on the risk side.",[11,1843,1844],{},"Josh Hile: Especially when you’re looking for more like green tech companies or something that’s gonna like be more volatile over time based on their technology and like how the market perceives them.",[11,1846,1847],{},"Stephen Lewis: Yes. And, and just, you know, by the very nature, what I, what I preach is, you know, companies that need to raise some sort of growth capital or some sort of financing, they’re super interest rate sensitive, interest rate and overall liquidity environment sensitive, right? Um, and so many of them got hammered in ’22, ’23 when interest rates went from, you know, mostly zero to to 5%, that was horrible for them.",[11,1849,1447],{},[11,1851,1852],{},"Stephen Lewis: But like the very simple model that I explained to clients is, you know, when you’re financing solar and wind farms, there’s publicly traded vehicles for this and a lot of private infrastructure funds too that do similar stuff. You know, they need to raise $100 million for a solar farm and they get $60 million of bank debt, something like that, need to raise $40 million from markets. And Maybe they’ll issue some notes and some equity, but then they’re going to use all that, basically all the cash flow off that contracted farm. Maybe they’ll get $10 million a year in cash flow off a $100 million investment, and they’re going to pay out $9 million back to investors in dividends, distributions, whatever. That doesn’t leave any money over to buy the next solar farm. So then when they need to go out and do that again, they’re raising more equity. And There’s a lot of people in the market say you don’t want to buy companies that are always needing to issue shares. You want to buy companies that are buying shares back from you.",[11,1854,1447],{},[11,1856,1857],{},"Stephen Lewis: But that’s the model, business model. And maybe it looks riskier. It’s more volatile, right? Because then they have to issue shares at whatever the current share price is. But that long-term, it’s infrastructure, right? It’s a 30-year contracted asset that’s inflation protected. et cetera, et cetera. So yeah, that’s how you’re having that impact.",[11,1859,1860],{},"Josh Hile: Yeah. And then what about, do you, uh, do a lot of your clients have previous financial advisors or is it, are you their kind of first financial advisor?",[11,1862,1863],{},"Stephen Lewis: Um, almost all of them are coming from previous advisors. Uh, and some of them, you know, the ones sometimes, like if they’ve just met me through a referral, you know, yeah. Then they want to trial me and say, you know, I’m gonna stick to my other advisor, but he doesn’t really know anything about climate or tells me I shouldn’t do it or whatever, and I don’t buy it. I’m curious to see what you can do. And so then they use me and the other person for a period. That happens frequently too. But yeah, almost all of them come from other advisors. Yeah.",[11,1865,1866],{},"Josh Hile: And then that’s what I was curious about is like if you’re essentially like reweighting their portfolio and like that’s essentially happening because of this impact orientation that they want within their portfolio and essentially your views on like where the market’s going. And like, I, what I, what I think is really interesting, like from an impact perspective, we’re gonna say that is you’re really trying to solve some of the biggest issues in front of us, like whether it’s around energy transition or around like even like beyond like climate. Which this also goes into social and like the band of the whole world where most of the people are gonna be affected by extreme temperatures, and that’s most of the world’s population. But just the— I don’t think it needs to be concessionary to that point, like to your point earlier, like I think there actually is just a big opportunity in front of us. And that’s why we get excited about like those kind of infrastructure-focused opportunities, whether it’s within solar and interconnection or other places where we think like they’re just real, like additional to the grid where you’re getting positive risk-adjusted returns for clients.",[11,1868,1869],{},"Stephen Lewis: So. Yeah. Yep, I agree.",[11,1871,1872],{},"Josh Hile: What do you think from just thinking about, you know, your work, What do you think people should rethink about sustainable climate-focused investing? Is there anything else they should be thinking about when they’re going after this particular area of the market?",[11,1874,1875],{},"Stephen Lewis: I mean, the primary point is the one I sort of got into already is what impact does your investment have? And that’s my problem with the divestment movement of getting out of fossil fuels. Number one, fossil fuels are 2.5%, 3% of the index, like that’s not really changing your portfolio much. And that’s what the divestment campaign keeps going back to is like, you don’t have to give up your returns because it barely changes. But it also has no impact. Exxon and Chevron are going to be just fine whether you buy their shares or not. You know, that has no impact.",[11,1877,1447],{},[11,1879,1880],{},"Stephen Lewis: But a little bit into smaller companies, again, if you’re keeping it very small, it’s not going to change the overall like risk profile or return profile of your overall portfolio much.",[11,1882,1447],{},[11,1884,1885],{},"Stephen Lewis: So that’s what people need to be thinking about. And I really wish there was some fund that would like at least consider this or take it under consideration. And there’s nothing—",[11,1887,1888],{},"Josh Hile: You’re saying like a mutual fund or what?",[11,1890,1891],{},"Stephen Lewis: Yeah, ETF, something like that. Like a broadly diversified fund, you know, it’s even like, I don’t want to bash on like any specific fund manager, but there are some that even have names like, you know, climate solutions and things like that. I’m like, great. But you look in that and the the top holdings are GE Vernova, that’s a gas turbine manufacturer, or Waste Management, that’s basically a tip fee collector, a trash collector. And sure, they have a recycling business, but they’re not really a reusable materials business. They are driving around trash trucks and picking up your trash. That’s what their business is. But again, one fund manager, I talked to one of them saying, why is GE Vernova your number one holding when they basically make gas turbines. And like, well, more than 50% of the revenue comes from electrification because it’s also like wind turbine management.",[11,1893,1447],{},[11,1895,1896],{},"Stephen Lewis: And they make transformers, a lot of the like GE’s grid products. Like, well, it’s interesting that you’re okay with the 50% revenue cutoff because you tell me I shouldn’t invest in S&P 500 because it’s 3% oil and gas. So on a diversified fund, 3% oil and gas, nope, that’s too much. You should get out of that. But then on this impact fund, if they’re almost 50% gas turbines, that’s okay. But that goes back to my whole problem with the just ESG screens on portfolio funds, things like that.",[11,1898,1899],{},"Josh Hile: Yeah. So here’s a broader question for you now that you’re coming kind of from an outsider view and you’re kind of seeing what wealth management is, but like, where do you see wealth management heading over the next 3 to 5 years, especially with the implementation of like AI in a more general sense and how that will impact kind of like either your work or the— or how people get financial advice?",[11,1901,1902],{},"Stephen Lewis: I, I, I don’t think there’s going to be a massive change in the— in like the breakdown of the population that wants to be a DIYer versus wants, you know, to pay for advice, et cetera. I think that will probably stay steady because that’s more about people’s sort of comfort level, you know, with things like that. So I hope that AI brings down fees and sort of levels the playing field to some extent.",[11,1904,1447],{},[11,1906,1907],{},"Stephen Lewis: There’s some advisors that I think charge fees that are way too high. But so in 3 to 5 years, I, I don’t know. I don’t see a massive change other than sort of making firms more efficient in what they do, but it’s not gonna upend the whole industry in one way or another, I don’t think. Yeah.",[11,1909,1910],{},"Josh Hile: Yeah. Anything else you see from wealth management? Like, and here’s one, I’ll lead it a little bit with, like, I think there is this, like, which you’re essentially doing, this trend towards personalization of the individual investor and like their financial goals. Whereas previously it was like, okay, we’re just gonna put you in a 60\u002F40 portfolio and like, talk a few times a year and call it good. Whereas more it’s like, okay, well, it’s around the estate planning, tax planning, like your specific values and where you want to be from a values perspective of your portfolio. Anything else like related to that and like what you see like for your clients?",[11,1912,1913],{},"Stephen Lewis: From an AI impact perspective, you mean?",[11,1915,1916],{},"Josh Hile: More just from like a wealth management perspective. It doesn’t have to be AI related.",[11,1918,1919],{},"Stephen Lewis: I mean, those trends you talked about, like you said, have been underway for at least a decade and will just continue becoming more that way. I think people should expect more out of their advisor for that 1%. Like you said, putting you in a robo fund, basically 60\u002F40, and then charging 1%, I don’t know. Is that justified? Yes.",[11,1921,1922],{},"Josh Hile: What about, do you think that there will be an increase in like values, climate-focused clients in the future? And this goes to kind of like wealth transition, younger investors being more worried about climate potentially. That’s, there’s some statistics around that, but just curious what you see.",[11,1924,1925],{},"Stephen Lewis: I certainly hope so. I’ve seen a lot of data that points that way. Not all of it’s conclusive, but certainly, you know, that the baby boomer generation was like, just make me money, I don’t care. it’s burning down the world, you know. Um, but yeah, so I think it’s, I think it’s trending that way. I don’t think it’s going to be like a tsunami coming, but yes, I think there will be pressure just pushing it more and more that direction where people think about values and what they want to be investing in. Um, the one hesitation I have about that though is that just brings on sort of greenwashing, you know.",[11,1927,1447],{},[11,1929,1930],{},"Stephen Lewis: Like lots of different levels, because then all of a sudden everybody wants to be a values-based advisor when like, what does that even mean? What are your values? People have lots of different values, lots of things they value in different situations, and to put it all in your financial portfolio, I mean, it’s another thing I explain when I explain to clients why I’m so focused on climate. I say it’s a couple reasons. Number one, climate is the biggest long-term problem that affects everyone. It’s one of the only ones I see not generally trending in the right direction. A lot of other gender equity issues, racial equity, we go backwards sometimes, but we are making slow progress in the right direction. Whereas climate, we’re still increasing emissions every single year, number one. And number two, there are companies who their business model is focused on solving that problem. There’s no company focused on solving gender equity problems.",[11,1932,1447],{},[11,1934,1935],{},"Stephen Lewis: Oh, I, you know, want to invest in gender equity, then you get some fund like, well, all of these companies have at least 40% board representation from women. Like, okay, is that really like investing in gender equity? I don’t know. But then when you talk about investing your values, I’m like, yeah, but what values? And you can’t apply like everything you feel about the world on your financial portfolio. Like, that doesn’t, that doesn’t make sense to me. So. Yeah.",[11,1937,1938],{},"Josh Hile: Yeah. And then just one thing to close us out. So then this is a question I ask everybody, but like, what’s one thing that people don’t know about you or a hobby that you enjoy?",[11,1940,1941],{},"Stephen Lewis: I asked my wife this question ’cause again, she’s my sounding board for a lot of stuff. She came up with the firm name and she said, How about the fact that whenever we travel abroad, you always like to ask the taxi drivers about their politics or what they think about the political situation? And often have interesting conversations. Sometimes it’s a taxi driver or a tour bus driver or whatever. And, you know, the bad part about being in like developing countries is in India or in— sorry, in Argentina, our tour guide one day was a lawyer. And our tour guide in Costa Rica this past winter had a master’s in like political science. So you can sometimes get really, really good, educated, informed answers from these people. And it’s kind of an ear to the ground that I always appreciate. When I was, when I was living in Kenya in 2007, I was reading an article in The Economist about how the upcoming election in Kenya was going to be like a beacon for Africa. Democracy was really, really taking hold in a lot of these countries that have been rocky for decades. And no one I knew on the ground there was optimistic about the upcoming election. They were all terrified. And it ended up being very violent and like so violent that the US government had to come in and with private planes to evacuate all the citizens from Western Kenya.",[11,1943,1447],{},[11,1945,1946],{},"Stephen Lewis: And I’m like, come on, economists, are you like doing your research? And that’s kind of my approach. I like to have an ear to the ground on stuff, investments or otherwise, just get the local take. What doesn’t make it into media?",[11,1948,1949],{},"Josh Hile: Yeah. Yeah. No, I love that. Yeah. And it’s definitely getting that local flair is definitely a totally different thing from what you might see in the media. So, well, thank you so much for the time. Really appreciate it. really appreciate just all your thoughts around climate and climate impact. And we appreciate kind of the work you’re doing for those clients.",[11,1951,1952],{},"Stephen Lewis: I appreciate what you guys are doing too. You have offerings that are hard to find elsewhere.",[11,1954,1955],{},"Future First Finance is a registered investment adviser and the opinions expressed by Future First Finance on this show are their own and do not reflect the opinions of Citizen Mint. All statements and opinions expressed are based upon information considered reliable although it should not be relied upon as such. Any statements or opinions are subject to change without notice.",[11,1957,1390],{},[11,1959,1393],{},{"title":1395,"searchDepth":1396,"depth":1396,"links":1961},[],"2026-07-29","In our fifteenth episode, Stephen Lewis of Future First Finance shares his perspective on modern wealth management, discussing climate-focused investing, the energy transition, disciplined portfolio construction, and how advisors can thoughtfully incorporate private markets to build resilient, long-term client portfolios.","\u002Fimages\u002Fresources\u002Fstephen-lewis-future-first-finance.png",{},"\u002Fresources\u002Fstephen-lewis-future-first-finance",{"title":1691,"description":1963},"resources\u002Fstephen-lewis-future-first-finance","8FK87-1Orkxv_5s6yLsG5ercP89pFJLElbkBd1uQ9t0",{"id":1971,"title":1972,"author":6,"body":1973,"category":1398,"date":2162,"description":2163,"extension":1401,"image":2164,"imageAlt":1403,"meta":2165,"navigation":1405,"path":2166,"seo":2167,"stem":2168,"__hash__":2169},"resources\u002Fresources\u002Fmatthew-oberdorfer-obfi-com.md","Matthew Oberdorfer | ObFi.com",{"type":8,"value":1974,"toc":2160},[1975,1984,1987,1993,2000,2007,2010,2013,2016,2019,2021,2024,2027,2030,2033,2036,2039,2042,2044,2047,2050,2053,2056,2059,2062,2065,2068,2071,2074,2077,2080,2083,2086,2089,2092,2095,2097,2100,2103,2106,2109,2112,2115,2118,2121,2124,2127,2130,2133,2136,2139,2142,2145,2148,2150,2153,2156,2158],[11,1976,1977,1978,1983],{},"Read transcript highlights or listen to the full episode to hear Matthew Oberdorfer of ",[21,1979,1982],{"href":1980,"rel":1981},"https:\u002F\u002Fobfi.com\u002F",[25],"ObFi.com"," and Josh Hile discuss Matt’s background, the evolution of ObFi.com, the importance of personalized and planning-driven advice, and how tax-aware strategies and private markets can support stronger long-term portfolio outcomes.",[15,1985],{"title":1972,"url":1986},"https:\u002F\u002Fwww.buzzsprout.com\u002F2378225\u002Fepisodes\u002F19184786",[11,1988,1989],{},[21,1990,26],{"href":1991,"rel":1992},"https:\u002F\u002Fwww.buzzsprout.com\u002F2378225\u002Fepisodes\u002F19184786-matthew-oberdorfer-obfi-com",[25],[1994,1995],"iframe",{"src":1996,"title":1997,"allow":1998,"allowFullScreen":1405,"loading":1999},"https:\u002F\u002Fwww.youtube.com\u002Fembed\u002FrIw114-a5Nc","Matthew Oberdorfer | ObFi.com on The Advisor View (video)","accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture","lazy",[11,2001,2002],{},[21,2003,2006],{"href":2004,"rel":2005},"https:\u002F\u002Fwww.youtube.com\u002Fwatch?v=rIw114-a5Nc",[25],"Watch on YouTube",[11,2008,2009],{},"Josh Hile: Hello all, this is Josh Hile, CEO of Citizen Mint, and this is the Advisor View podcast. Today we’re joined by Matt Oberdorfer. Is that how you pronounce your last name? Actually, sorry.",[11,2011,2012],{},"Matthew Oberdorfer: Yep. Oberdorfer. You got it.",[11,2014,2015],{},"Josh Hile: Okay. And Matt runs a firm called ObFin.com. And maybe, Matt, you can just talk about your background. How you started the firm, kind of, and I think also the interest of your background of being a veteran and kind of all that would be helpful.",[11,2017,2018],{},"Matthew Oberdorfer: Yeah. Okay. So first of all, thanks for having me on and I appreciate it. Excited to talk a little bit here. My background, I’ll do the short version. Okay. Is 24 years in the United States Marine Corps as an aviator. A planner at the operational level, and then at the end, space operations. So it was a really nice combination of kind of motivated, gung-ho type stuff coupled with nerdy analytical stuff. And for me, that was a great fit. So I got to touch like all four corners of the Marine Corps. you know, be all over the globe. I was, uh, active duty, I was enlisted, I was an officer, I was reserves. So I had like a really comprehensive experience. I loved it. Uh, we— I was in the, uh, EA-6B Prowler jet, awesome machine. Um, we would do electronic warfare. So basically our mission was to keep other people, uh, typically Marines, typically US service members, but a lot of times it was, uh, coalition forces to keep them safe. So for me, it was fantastic. Did a little under a decade of that, and then a little over a decade as an operational planner where you’re at the next highest level. Basically, simple version, you are assigning missions to the squadrons, right? So get the missions from higher headquarters, then I was assigning the missions to squadrons, and that requires allocation of resources and a lot of skills that ended up making a difference as a financial planner, a lot of, um, analyzing and mitigating risk. Um, so it was, it was kind of a nice precursor. Um, and then lastly finished off with about 3 years, um, at, uh, US Space Command.",[11,2020,1528],{},[11,2022,2023],{},"Matthew Oberdorfer: For the Marine Corps. So all the services have, uh, some responsibility there. For the assets that help, uh, around the world. And that was a really nice way to end the career. Kind of got nerdy again, got really high level. It goes beyond the operational level into the strategic level. And long story short, I loved serving others, and I knew that I kind of wanted to get back to it. That’s what gave me, like, my greatest sense of purpose.",[11,2025,2026],{},"Josh Hile: Yeah, yeah, that’s great. And so just because it’s so interesting, so what does Space Command do? What is— what does that actually, like, entail? Like, what are they looking— like, is that like satellite satellites?",[11,2028,2029],{},"Matthew Oberdorfer: Is—",[11,2031,2032],{},"Josh Hile: what is that?",[11,2034,2035],{},"Matthew Oberdorfer: Yeah, so it’s a lot of assets on orbit, but also there’s ground-based assets that help support the whole infrastructure, right? Um, and some of it is as simple as keeping GPS timing proper, because your position is basically a function of accurate timing. And, um, so that’s an oversimplified version, but yeah, mostly assets on orbit. And some of them have exquisite capabilities, as we say. And, uh, and just really trying to keep the country at the forefront of all that’s happening, which, which it is. Yeah. Okay.",[11,2037,2038],{},"Josh Hile: Super interesting. So what, so what kind of clients, um, do you serve? Are you looking to serve right now? Um, and kind of what’s your vision for the firm?",[11,2040,2041],{},"Matthew Oberdorfer: So I knew immediately I wanted to serve a certain type of individual, right? So not necessarily based on age, not necessarily based on net worth, although those are characteristics that a lot of firms use and I understand it. I was more interested in working with a mentality. So the way I say it is we put your money on a mission, right? So people that operate their day, their week on a mission. Oftentimes that is quite literally service members, which makes perfect sense. Business owners, right? This like win the hour, win the week mentality, like really speaks to them. Even if, you know, that term is new, like it makes sense. They’re trying to drive forward, make decisions that are going to generate revenue and control expenses and serve the public. And then professionals is a bit of a broad category, but especially professionals that are actively managing their career. So like their career is their mission, right? And oftentimes that comes with things like equity, right? Some type of ownership. And then it is similar but still different from, you know, a business owner. So that tends to be who we try to serve, that person who’s on a mission.",[11,2043,1528],{},[11,2045,2046],{},"Matthew Oberdorfer: Yeah, yeah.",[11,2048,2049],{},"Josh Hile: Um, and so maybe you can just talk about like your approach to advice and planning and investing. Um, where, where do you see like— what do you see as your kind of like differentiators within the market?",[11,2051,2052],{},"Matthew Oberdorfer: Yeah, so our approach is a combination of two things, I would say. One is best practices Right. So we try to live at the intersection of best practices and then 21st century mentality or design. And I’ll explain both of those. So best practices, things like people need financial planning, people need investment management, business owners need 401s. So we provide that. And then within each one of those domains, They need quality best practices, right? So we need to manage risk. We need to diversify. We need to understand your objectives overall if we’re going to build you a portfolio. When it comes to financial planning, we need to touch on all the big topics such as cash flow, liquidity. If you’re a business owner, is your business cyclical? Or not. So are you going to have cash flow crunches? And the list is long, right? So insurance, estate planning, right? So all these things fall into best practices. But then the intersection of best practices with a modern 21st century advisory is what I’m calling next-gen advisors. And I’m not the only one sort of in this arena with this mentality. But it’s a— so it’s the way that we charge fees or don’t charge fees. And the way that— the way I say it is it all boils down to how can we align with your mission as highly as possible. So I’ll give you a concrete example here. If you want to be strictly an investment management client with us, that’s perfectly fine. We do that. It’s an AUM fee, and that’s, you know, a best practice, that’s a common practice. But once you are interested in financial planning, we now use a flat fee model. And one of the things that we really love about the flat fee model is we feel like it’s very highly aligned with somebody’s financial goals. And I’ll just give you like some numbers. For instance, say we had an individual who was worth, um, maybe their business was worth $5 million. So they’re doing pretty well, you know, their business is growing. And let’s say that they’ve done a good job, um, growing their net worth in a second place. Let’s say the markets, all right, let’s say they’ve got $5 million of net worth in their business and $5 million of net worth in the markets. So if we are your financial advisor and we’re doing planning for you, we strictly charge a flat fee. And if you come to us and you want to have like a legitimate conversation, right, or you’re trying to make a decision in your personal life or your business life about maybe it’s time that your business buys the building that you typically lease, like you’ve leased since you were, you were a startup. Now you’ve got a lot more cash on hand, a lot more revenue, and maybe owning the building is starting to make sense, right? Now you’re going to diversify, you’re going to have tenants, right? Let’s say there is multiple spaces, you’ll take up 60%, the remaining 40% will be tenants. And, or maybe you want a second home in Florida, things like this, right? Real estate is just a simple example. If I— if our relationship is entirely AUM-based, then, you know, I instantly recognize that it’s going to be $2 or $3 million of exiting the market and purchasing the building, and that’s going to reduce my fees. Now, I don’t like— proactively, uh, work against the AUM model. Again, if you just want to be an investment management client, then we use it, right? But I think once I explain that the flat fee doesn’t really change the equation for us and it’s strictly about giving good quality advice, then clients and prospects, they really are very receptive to it. And So really, that’s the kind of high alignment that we wanted to create when designing our fee structure. Mm-hmm. Got it.",[11,2054,2055],{},"Josh Hile: That’s helpful. And so what do you think most advisors get wrong about working with high net worth clients?",[11,2057,2058],{},"Matthew Oberdorfer: So for high net worth clients, I would say probably two things. One, is so the fees that a high net worth client ends up having to pay start getting quite large. You know, frankly, if you have a— like in the previous example, if there’s $500,000 or if there’s $5 million in assets in the market, we’re looking at $50,000 a year if we’re at 1% AUM now, typically. Right? Um, advisories will start reducing their fees, but you’re still in that $35,000+ a year. Um, and that, that gets, you know, high net worth individuals’ attention. So like with a flat fee model, we tend to cap around $25,000 and that instantly cuts their bill in half. So I think that’s something that speaks, you to high net worth individuals. And a second thing is managing risk. So I think the way risk is managed is oversimplified. And I think there’s more due diligence that ought to be there. Thinking beyond the markets is pretty critical once someone’s net worth starts growing, growing, growing.",[11,2060,2061],{},"Josh Hile: Mm-hmm. And maybe you can talk about that risk and like, what does that look like for you and how do you think about that for your clients? Like, what are you looking at? What like specific metrics or things are you looking at for clients to help them with their risk profile?",[11,2063,2064],{},"Matthew Oberdorfer: Yeah, so overconcentration is pretty much a go-to answer because I think it ought to be, but if you are strictly in the market, And it’s got to be coupled with a few different things too. So what’s your time horizon? This stuff, this matters, right? What are your feelings about risk in the first place? This matters because what’ll end up happening is, um, it begins to feel like a roller coaster ride. So maybe, right, it’s a bumpy road for a month, maybe it’s a bumpy road for a year, Over the course of time, though, the charts start smoothing out. But if you make decisions because you’re overconcentrated and the pain looks or feels very significant at the time, it starts becoming more difficult to help a client through different market cycles. But if they are more diversified, right? So say they have, um, they’re invested in private deals, alts of some sort, right? Whether it’s real estate, private credit, um, and crypto, I know is a buzzword, but, um, there are benefits that are significant to managing risk the second you exit the market with the appropriate amount of money. Or the stock market, let’s say, and starts investing outside that market, it starts increasing your diversification, reducing your concentration. And I think there’s an unfortunate misconception that the second someone hears alts, it inherently feels more risky. And it’s just really not the case. You have to look at each deal or investment closely and decide, right, if it is actually more risky or not. You cannot just label alts risky, uh, broadly. That’s not very professional.",[11,2066,2067],{},"Josh Hile: So anyway, yeah, no, I, I 100% agree. And it’s, it’s funny because I think that is the broad— or people will say that, and then it’s like, well, You can invest in all these like, um, SPACs and that could be incredibly risky. You can invest in a hot tech stock that could be incredibly risky or biotech stock and that could be incredibly risky. And that can be completely different from an alt investment that has a lot of downside protection already embedded into it.",[11,2069,2070],{},"Matthew Oberdorfer: 1000%. Those are classic risky areas and there’s probably the list is really long of areas that are pretty darn solid, right? So yeah, yeah, yeah, the broad label is not good. I’ll also dovetail on that broad label thought, um, and it is an important sort of concept. I think oftentimes this probably happens, um, to all investors, um, regardless of their net worth. I think it’s probably quite common that advisors will give you a questionnaire. It tends to be quite nearly at the beginning of your relationship, you know, and it needs to be for compliance reasons, and then it’s repeated every so often, and it helps the advisor assess your level of tolerance for risk. And there’s a, you know, a handful of criteria that they’re going to ask you about, or the form, the questionnaire will ask you about, and that’s all well and good, that’s important, but what tends to happen is that’s as far as that conversation goes. So a label of cautious is applied to the entire individual or the entire household, and to me that’s not quite enough due diligence, to put it lightly. So I’ll give you an example. And if I were to ask somebody, what is your level of comfort for risk on your 401? And say you’re starting to get older, say you’re 45, so you’re not at retirement, typically speaking. You have significant time on the clock, but you’ve also spent significant time in your profession earning and trying to build a 401 so that you can go retire. Generally, people feel fairly cautious. They feel like they have to stick that one. They feel like they have to do a great job with that. And if that’s their mindset, I would encourage it. You know, that’s a pretty good mindset for most people on a 401. But if I were to say— if I were to continue the conversation and give it a little more due diligence and say, okay, your business is worth $5 million. You’ve got $5 million in investments in the stock market that have been growing. It’s been a great decade to 15 years. Um, what are your feelings about risk if we took $50,000 and created a new portfolio on the side? And you’re on— you could retire now if you wanted to, but you still have 20 years, you know, before you’d like to retire. Well, that $50,000 on the side, their feeling about risk is not going to be the same. They’re not going to express the same concerns, the same goals, the same objectives as they would with that heavy hitter, gotta stick it, gotta land this airplane right on the numbers, right where it counts, 401. There’s— right, so that’s where a level of You know, detail starts to matter, and, and you can get— and this is where alts become a beautiful thing, right? So it’s a fantastic tool, but the conversation needs to be, uh, thorough enough with your advisor that these topics even come up, and you can break out how would you feel about, you know, this amount of money in this asset class.",[11,2072,2073],{},"Josh Hile: No, definitely no. This is— that’s, that’s definitely a huge topic. Um, and you mentioned, um, the type of clients you serve are usually business owners, maybe servicemen or women. And anybody else that you’re serving kind of from a client perspective? And then, uh, how does the client you serve influence how you build the portfolio?",[11,2075,2076],{},"Matthew Oberdorfer: Yeah, so another So when it comes to professionals, that’s really kind of our third category— owners, service members, and professionals. It tends to be— so like we have an executive, a CFO, he’s been a COO at a number of companies. We have airline pilots, right? That’s a whole unique category, quite frankly, because they tend to have good income, but they also tend to have a lot of time. So then they tend—",[11,2078,2079],{},"Josh Hile: in a lot of cases.",[11,2081,2082],{},"Matthew Oberdorfer: Yeah, they can control their schedule and they, they tend to do a good bit of research on investments, but they tend to fixate on one particular thing and fall in love with it. So that, that’s a unique— just, just knowing that, that group of guys and gals, right? So how do you work them off of one idea that they think is going to make or break a portfolio? And those, those are like a couple good examples Um, and then, you know, we, we have, um, two doctors, and they tend to— they’re, they’re incredibly busy, right? So they’re very smart. If they had the time, right, to pour their energy into finances and investments, they would probably do well with it, but they don’t. And they know that their time is best served earning and working. As a surgeon, for instance. So yeah, yeah.",[11,2084,2085],{},"Josh Hile: What about, um, I, I’m not sure if this is like specific, but like, you know, you mentioned about risk and managing concentrated wealth, like whether it’s within like a particular stock or something else that the client’s holding. How do you think about that for the client, and what are ways you mitigate that?",[11,2087,2088],{},"Matthew Oberdorfer: Yeah, so I think the first thing I do is The first thing that comes to mind is I think about taxes and how do we do a good job of diversifying and managing this concentration without getting this client crushed by taxes. So that ends up becoming more complex. It’s very much dependent on what are they currently invested in, where is it invested, right? So a tax-advantaged account versus a taxable brokerage account, the approach is going to be different. Um, and then there’s other details too, right? If it’s equity, um, then there’s vesting schedules. Yeah, you know, they need to be considered. And once they start getting older, then there’s things like, um, you know, RMDs, right? What’s the best time to— do we want to delay the first year of RMDs? Um, I just went through that whole conversation with a client, and we decided that we weren’t gonna delay the first year, and that’s what ended up making sense by the time we ran the numbers. But the overconcentration piece— I come to taxes, that’s my first thought. I’m trying not to get a client hurt by taxes. Um, the overall net is more important, right? So if there is some sort of taxation that’s going to occur, um, but we’re going to be up 15% overall, Right. We’re not— I’m not necessarily inclined to pass on things that grow your net worth strictly, strictly to avoid taxation. Right. If you’re running a business, you’re going to sell a widget and just pay the taxes on it. So similar mindset in that regard. But, but yeah, that’s, that’s kind of the first thing that comes to mind when I have a client that is heavily concentrated is how do we carefully unwind this thoughtfully, um, and with especially being careful about taxation.",[11,2090,2091],{},"Josh Hile: Yeah, yeah. And then, um, just thinking about liquidity and like illiquidity and like what your clients are comfortable with based on their specific situation, is there a percentage that, that usually falls in for your clients specifically of their portfolio, like for private markets? Or alternatives in general?",[11,2093,2094],{},"Matthew Oberdorfer: So it, so it varies. So like, again, business owners, their profile tends to be different than what I see with service members, and that profile tends to be different than the professionals. So some of the service members, their paychecks are healthy. But once you’re a COO or a CFO, it tends to go, you know, 3x. And, and then once you’re a business owner, the sky’s the kind of the limit— is a little bit of an exaggeration, but it is kind of the big idea, uh, in the first place, generally, that, you know, you can make a significant amount of money. So the profiles on liquidity vary greatly across those, um, three different type of individuals. But what I end up seeing, like, is that service members, um, their liquidity tends to be, um, very appropriate for their financial situation, generally speaking. Um, the dollar amounts might be smaller dollar amounts, but based on the volatility of their income, which is not very volatile, right? Next year tends to always be your best— your next best year, right?",[11,2096,1447],{},[11,2098,2099],{},"Matthew Oberdorfer: 3% pay raise. So that they tend to be pretty in line with liquidity needs based on their expenses. And but then when you come to business owners, liquidity is much more all over the place. So, uh, that— it tends to be a bigger conversation, a bigger piece of the puzzle. Um, they’re making truthfully moderately difficult decisions about should I— how much should I reinvest in the business, right? So I have growth, I want to keep fueling growth. Um, so they have a bit of a fear oftentimes with not fueling the growth or not reinvesting in the business. And, and, and so their, their liquidity oftentimes it can become a little bit constrained, right? And then they— the problem is you’re going to hit, you’re going to hit bumps along the way, right? Some of these are macroeconomic bumps that are just not up to you. And you want to be in a position where you can weather the storm or even thrive, right, in an economic downturn. ’08, ’09, great financial crisis. COVID more recently. Um, and if you have an appropriate amount of liquidity, then you can make some significant moves during these downturns that enable you to accelerate, right? So maybe it’s buying out another company that is just a great fit for you. Maybe it’s hiring another person because you have an expertise. Like, I was talking with a CPA who has an ex— they had an expertise in PPP, um, because they poured themselves into it during COVID and business was booming. And because they had enough cash on hand, they could hire 2 more people right then and not, not wonder how they’re going to pay for it. And it really fueled growth, and it ended up absolutely defining their business, and it helped people through a very difficult time. And those are extremely loyal clients now. Uh, yeah, so the owner’s tent, their, their liquidity, um, sort of management is much more varied than, say, a service member’s, generally speaking.",[11,2101,2102],{},"Josh Hile: Got it, got it.",[11,2104,2105],{},"Matthew Oberdorfer: Yeah.",[11,2107,2108],{},"Josh Hile: And so, um, I guess just, um, switching topics a little bit, but where are you seeing the most compelling opportunities today, um, from a like alternative standpoint?",[11,2110,2111],{},"Matthew Oberdorfer: Yeah, so I think for as an advisor, what I noticed is I tend to work with people that are younger. So I’m 45. It tends to be people that are in their late 20s, 30s, 40s, and 50s. So it’s not really people that are in their last 5 years or about to retire, although I do have some of that. Um, if you can’t have an intelligent conversation about alts— or let me put it another way, if you can have an intelligent conversation about alts, it brings a lot of peace to the clients. And here’s what I’ve noticed. Is there’s a lot of information out there and people have a lot of access to information. So it tends to be they hear about crypto, they hear about private credit, they hear about data centers and infrastructure, they hear about do we have the energy to actually pull this off. They have— they hear about all these things, but they’re not a professional in that regard. So to not have the conversation about probably 15 hot topics in the world of finance and investing, um, I think it’s like a big white elephant in the room, and you just need to give it its due diligence. And if the answer is okay, this isn’t a good fit for you because you don’t like it or because of your financial, like, profile overall like it just doesn’t make sense for you. But you need to be able to talk to clients about it. Just to be quite frank, if it’s all stocks and bonds and like your big pitch is that you’ve got a high yield savings account, everybody can do that. Everybody can have that conversation. So the differentiator is, I think, or at least what I see, and I can’t speak for everyone, is the ability to talk about alts intelligently and then implement it thoughtfully, right? Suitably, right? To use a legal compliance term here. And I also think the structure of your fees in creating alignment. So I would say alignment and the world of alts, you really, really need to give it a lot of due diligence nowadays.",[11,2113,2114],{},"Josh Hile: Yeah, I know we agree. And we’re seeing that too. We’re talking to a lot of advisors and just their ability to offer something that they can get elsewhere. And, um, you know, it is going to be something that in a world of information they’ll want access to, especially if you’ve seen like the statistics about younger clients. They just don’t believe in the stock market as much as the older client generation has.",[11,2116,2117],{},"Matthew Oberdorfer: Yeah. So yeah, I could— yep, I see the same thing. Yeah.",[11,2119,2120],{},"Josh Hile: Um, so What’s, um, just looking back at our questions, so what, what is one thing that advisors should rethink or one thing they should do when they’re listening to this that think about improving how they, uh, help clients?",[11,2122,2123],{},"Matthew Oberdorfer: I think I’d come back to the way you’re charging clients, right? Like, we, you, we, we make no money on commissions. We have no, we have no hidden fees. Yeah, 1% is 1%. There’s nothing else. I think people appreciate that. Um, like, the fee schedule that you agree to when you onboard with us is the fee schedule you’ll have forever. I think that speaks to people. If we did generate a new fee schedule that applies to new clients, I think people like that. I think they’re tired of finding out later that it wasn’t quite what they thought it was. That’s one thing. And then I would say, again, the ability to add specialty advice or understanding, right? So for us specifically, like in this conversation, alts, I think you need to widen your scope and get educated and have the ability to have broader conversations about what’s out there. Um, again, somewhat tangential with the specialty advice is if you want to be able to speak about insurance, right? So now let’s not even talk alts for a second. If you want to be able to speak about insurance, You can go get an insurance license but not charge or sell the product, right? So this is just how you can add value to the relationship that you have with clients or prospective clients, um, the ability to have, again, educated, thorough, comprehensive conversations. So I, I think the way you charge someone and what you bring to the table. I think those are the two critical areas where, where, uh, the whole profession of advisory, um, can grow. Yeah.",[11,2125,2126],{},"Josh Hile: Okay. And then, um, this— and this kind of goes on a separate topic, but what do you think is the biggest opportunity over the next 3 to 5 years for you, wealth advisors, this space in general?",[11,2128,2129],{},"Matthew Oberdorfer: So for me as an advisor, you’re saying, or for clients?",[11,2131,2132],{},"Josh Hile: For me as an advisor, I think it’s, I think it’s both, kind of talking about the wealth management space in general. And like, what do you think wealth advisors’ biggest, uh, opportunity is over the next 3 to 5 years?",[11,2134,2135],{},"Matthew Oberdorfer: I think it’s the ability— I’ll use an analogy. So when, when MP3s came out, they caught fire. It was a fantastic value add to society, right? You’ve got a lot of music in your pocket. Yeah, right. Um, so we’ve got an app that does that. We’ve got multiple apps that do that. What ended up happening is two things coexisted at the same time. Um, you have that convenience and you have that breadth. That was cool. But there’s a reason why vinyl made a comeback. Vinyl made a comeback because it’s real, because it’s tangible, because there’s a connection there, because there’s like a relationship, right, with vinyl. And you can show someone your collection, um, it kind of demonstrates what you like the most, right? So long story short, there’s a lot of fintech apps out there now that are trying to provide clients or customers with financial solutions. And I respect that. And a lot— some of them do a good job, some of them don’t do a good job. But if you’re able to go fill that space where you’re both modern in the sense that you align with 21st century values and you can provide a relationship and build trust and be high touch, you know, with clients, then that is similar to, um, the sort of appeal, right, that vinyl ended up having. And like, why did it make a comeback? Because, um, because it had a place, right? So I think the advisor that can be both present and important in your life as a client, but also is willing to depart from like the legacy style of advising. And I think that’s really where there’s a tremendous opportunity. And I kind of, I got an expression and, you know, it’s like, I don’t think a lot of the younger clients, let’s say my age and younger, um, you know, I don’t think they need a mahogany office and a lecture. More so, they need wise advice and a coffee, right? Yeah, I would say that’s true of myself. If I was looking for something, I want wise advice and a coffee, right? If I’m gonna go make a decision, whether it’s financial or otherwise. So that’s kind of where I think the opportunity exists, is that filling the space. Um, there is no shortage of tech apps like fintech apps out there, um, and they’re going to keep coming. But if you can like be that human with a relationship, an actual meaningful impact on someone’s life— and we— I like to intercept someone like at a more meaningful part of their life that kind of directs their trajectory more so than, you know, coming in the last year or 5 and landing the airplane into retirement. That’s, that’s where I think the most opportunity is.",[11,2137,2138],{},"Josh Hile: Yeah, definitely. No, that’s super helpful. And so what about— here’s, here’s kind of my last question, a little bit different, but What’s one thing that people don’t know about you?",[11,2140,2141],{},"Matthew Oberdorfer: Hmm, well, I haven’t really thought much about that. I really like the question.",[11,2143,2144],{},"Josh Hile: A hobby that, that you do outside of work that you enjoy?",[11,2146,2147],{},"Matthew Oberdorfer: Oh yeah, I mean, uh, I’m really big on fitness and discipline. Like, discipline is like an overarching category for me, and like so many things fit in there. Um, fitness is, is just one of them. Um, General Mattis, I believe it was, you know, had this comment about fitness. He said, get on with it. Right. So it’s kind of like, the way I see it is, I personally enjoy it. I can’t really get enough of it. But I need to respect my body and do what’s healthy for it.",[11,2149,1447],{},[11,2151,2152],{},"Matthew Oberdorfer: But, but yeah, I think, I think, I think I’d probably go with something like, I’m kind of a— I love fitness.",[11,2154,2155],{},"ObFi.com is a registered investment adviser and the opinions expressed by ObFi.com on this show are their own and do not reflect the opinions of Citizen Mint. All statements and opinions expressed are based upon information considered reliable although it should not be relied upon as such. Any statements or opinions are subject to change without notice.",[11,2157,1390],{},[11,2159,1393],{},{"title":1395,"searchDepth":1396,"depth":1396,"links":2161},[],"2026-05-15","In our seventh episode, Matthew Oberdorfer of ObFi.com shares his perspective on modern wealth management, discussing personalized financial planning, tax-aware portfolio construction, and how advisors can integrate alternative investments and private markets to support long-term client outcomes.","\u002Fimages\u002Fresources\u002Fmatthew-oberdorfer-obfi-com.png",{},"\u002Fresources\u002Fmatthew-oberdorfer-obfi-com",{"title":1972,"description":2163},"resources\u002Fmatthew-oberdorfer-obfi-com","WL0nBqMeYrjysjRR_3u-Gaf5umtUewfwZwqOsA97yCw",1790730094291]